CWG meeting 2012-02-06

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Monday, 23 January 2012			21:59
toffehoff		Will we go through them next week?			21:59
JonathanB		OK			21:59
harry-wood		see you guys			22:00
toffehoff		See you all next week!			22:00
JonathanB		Byesy-bye			22:00
Monday, 6 February 2012			20:57
The topic for #osm-strategic is: Lets just replace the front page with a link to google maps			20:57
harry-wood		hello			20:59
rweait1		hello.			20:59
JonathanB		Evening.			20:59
toffehoff		Hello all.			21:00
toffehoff		I'm in a cafe in Salt Lake City.			21:00
rweait1		Wow.  Enjoy your beer and joint.  :-/			21:00
toffehoff		Hope this connection is better than last time I was on an "foreign" connection ;-)			21:00
harry-wood		I'm in snowy London …except it mostly melted already			21:01
rweait1		Can I add "Ulf's Legacy" to the agenda?			21:01
toffehoff		Beer, in early afternoon …. Neuh...			21:01
toffehoff		user.			21:01
toffehoff		Sure I meant.			21:01
rweait1		Beautiful t-shirt weather here in Toronto.			21:01
rweait1		and a rare blue sky.			21:01
rweait1		okay, who's starting us off?			21:02
RichardF		hellooooo			21:02
toffehoff		I've send you all an email about half an hour ago...			21:02
harry-wood		ooh. Looks like we're missing IRC log from last time			21:03
toffehoff		About the 2012 plan. If we agree, we can publish that onto the WG-page on osmf.org			21:03
harry-wood		http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes#Communication_Working_Group			21:03
toffehoff		I'm afraid I don't have it....			21:04
toffehoff		the IRC log.			21:04
harry-wood		jonathanB here?  Dont suppose you have that do you?			21:04
JonathanB		I do -- gimme five to reformat and I'll post.			21:04
toffehoff		So, what's on today agenda?			21:05
harry-wood		coool..  Just paste it in a <pre> tag. We can sort it out later			21:05
RichardF		I'll mention, just for the record:			21:05
RichardF		a few months ago I discussed entering OSM for a thing in the Observer (UK newspaper) called "Britain's New Radicals"			21:06
RichardF		about organisations that are changing the country and the world for the better			21:06
RichardF		and CWG people said "sure, just do it"			21:06
RichardF		anyway, I heard from them this week and we've been listed as one of the 50			21:06
RichardF		so we get a nice mention in the Observer and everything			21:06
harry-wood		cool			21:06
toffehoff		:-)			21:06
rweait1		Well done.			21:06
harry-wood		anythng we need to do?			21:06
RichardF		could possibly do with some images to send them if anyone has any suggestions!			21:06
harry-wood		Maybe the one of TomH in reindeer antlers?			21:07
RichardF		hmmmm ;)			21:07
harry-wood		…no maybe not			21:07
RichardF		well, I can probably find one anyway			21:08
toffehoff		Maybe some of the featured images of the wiki?			21:08
harry-wood		an image of the map			21:08
RichardF		there's a nice one by a friend of Mikel on the Press pages which I'll ask him if we can use			21:08
Blackadder		Did you find a log for last time? I might have it			21:09
harry-wood		ooh hello Blackadder			21:09
Blackadder		hi, was just passing ;-)			21:09
harry-wood		think JonathanB has it			21:09
Blackadder		cool. ping me if needed			21:10
JonathanB		I do -- rough version now at http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/CWG_meeting_2012-01-23			21:10
harry-wood		Next on the agenda...			21:10
harry-wood		What the plan for the plan?			21:10
harry-wood		Do we need to write more of a plan than that? Or those bullet points are enough?			21:10
harry-wood		(see henk's email half an hour ago)			21:11
rweait1		Has Henk swapped Dutch for Arabic to lighten his load?			21:11
toffehoff		:-)			21:12
rweait1		Do we have a lead on an Arabic-speaking contributor?			21:12
toffehoff		I remember we had a discussion a couple of weeks ago about the languages would like to have.			21:12
toffehoff		Arabic was one of our "challenges"			21:12
rweait1		I don't have any objection to those four points.			21:13
toffehoff		The only thing we may want to add is if we expect to spend any budget on these items.			21:14
rweait1		toffehoff, I can't see why we would.  Would we hire a translator for a community that isn't interested enough to translate for themselves?			21:16
toffehoff		If we do not expect to spend any budget, that's ok. If we do, it may be good to mention it.			21:16
harry-wood		Maybe "expanding the number of active CWG members"  doesn't need to be one of the bullet points.  It's kind of a meta-plan.  We need more people to some other things we're planning			21:17
harry-wood		"Taking on more communication challenges within the community, such as work on documentation"			21:17
RichardF		+1			21:17
toffehoff		What kind of documentation are we talking about?			21:18
JonathanB		Yes -- "more people" is like "more money"			21:18
RichardF		toffehoff: simplifying common aspects of OSM in the same way that switch2osm simplifies getting maps onto your own site			21:18
toffehoff		I think the Engineering WG also has a target to make more technical documention available.			21:19
JonathanB		...and that's something we can offer to help with			21:19
toffehoff		Fine, just so we do not duplicate things....			21:19
harry-wood		"documentation" may mean new websites explaining things, or improving existing documents on the wiki.  But also some grand unified plan for different attempts at documentation			21:19
JonathanB		(full Minutes up at http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/CWG_meeting_2012-01-23 now)			21:20
rweait1		no objections to any of that from me.  			21:20
JonathanB		What we seem to be missing is a grand front page to *all* OSM documentation			21:20
harry-wood		Yes. And trying scope out the different docs so that it's clear where to go for what			21:21
toffehoff		Sounds great.			21:21
rweait1		anything else to add or remove from that plan, or can we move on?			21:22
toffehoff		So: remove the # of members and add the documentation item?			21:23
JonathanB		+1 to that			21:23
RichardF		yep			21:24
toffehoff		OK, will send this around on management@ and put it on our page on osmf.org			21:24
toffehoff		Next?			21:25
toffehoff		Ulf's legacy?			21:25
rweait1		Right.			21:25
rweait1		Background			21:25
toffehoff		See also mail of rweait1 @ Jan 29th.			21:26
rweait1		Ulf's family have asked that OSMF receive funds from those who wish to honour Ulf, as a way to continue Ulf's good work and interest in OSM.			21:26
rweait1		Board appears to be fine with CWG taking lead on this.			21:26
rweait1		So we need to 1) set up to recive the funds 2) announce			21:27
rweait1		and 3) decide what to do with the funds.			21:27
rweait1		as a suitable legacy.			21:27
rweait1		Sound good?			21:27
harry-wood		yes.			21:28
harry-wood		We need to be set up to receive donations from germany… which seemed to be a problem in the past			21:28
rweait1		receiving Euro transfers is now set up and on the wiki.			21:28
harry-wood		Cool. Does that solve it?			21:29
rweait1		any memo field with "Ulf Moeller" would make the contribution trackable.			21:29
rweait1		comments are already included in paypal payments.			21:29
toffehoff		We could also make a special paypal donation button			21:29
rweait1		I think the tricky part is "what to do with the fund."			21:30
toffehoff		which automatically adds a remark.			21:30
harry-wood		2) announce <—   No problems with that.  I think we're getting quite good a announcing things			21:30
harry-wood		We'd need to decide how to announce it exactly.  Depends what we're announcing.			21:31
rweait1		we could consume the fund all at once to do something "big", or a bit at a time, over time, to do something smaller, but for several years...			21:31
toffehoff		It would be good to have a rough idea on what we're going to do with it.			21:31
rweait1		suggestions have been, 1) sponsor attendee for SotM.			21:31
JonathanB		Something, say, annual would provide a longer legacy			21:31
toffehoff		JonathanB: +1			21:32
rweait1		2) donate GPS(es) to someone, each year			21:32
rweait1		Right.  so if the fund is 2-3k, can it bear interest, and buy a GPSr (or two) each year?			21:33
toffehoff		When we're talking about donating GPS-es, we could rename the maps4all project ....			21:33
rweait1		Perhaps award those to German Cyclist mappers?			21:33
rweait1		you mean GPS2Go?			21:33
harry-wood		maps3all is kind of the new name for GPS2go I think			21:34
toffehoff		Yes, the plan is to revamp it under the maps4all name.			21:34
harry-wood		which is well underway			21:34
harry-wood		so probably best not to suggest renaming it again :-)			21:34
rweait1		I think we want to come to a decision on this fairly soon.  And I think we want more ideasfrom which to choose.			21:35
toffehoff		If we want to do it, we need to be quick.			21:35
harry-wood		I like the sponsor SOTM attendee idea			21:35
harry-wood		how to pick a winner?			21:35
JonathanB		That could eat up 1000s per year			21:35
harry-wood		yes it could be expensive			21:36
toffehoff		I like the gps-es a bit more, since it's more scalable.			21:36
RichardF		I like the idea of using it to encourage real on-the-ground mapping.			21:36
RichardF		We don't do that enough.			21:36
rweait1		RichardF +1			21:36
RichardF		so, either GPSes or some form of mapping prize.			21:36
rweait1		That strikes me as Ulf, to a "T"			21:36
rweait1		The photos I've seen of him, are Ulf with his bike and a GPS.  			21:37
toffehoff		Pardon my French: "to a 'T'" ?			21:37
rweait1		Do we give away GPSrs, or a GPSr and a bike?			21:37
rweait1		toffehoff: To A "T".  (A perfect Match)			21:37
rweait1		:-)			21:37
toffehoff		ah…. :-)			21:38
rweait1		picking a winner.  Hard problem again.			21:38
rweait1		Accept nominations?  			21:38
toffehoff		What are the criteria?			21:38
rweait1		random chance from those who map a cycleway?			21:38
RichardF		accept nominations. that rewards community, too.			21:39
RichardF		i.e. people have to like you :)			21:39
toffehoff		RichardF: _1			21:39
toffehoff		+1			21:39
rweait1		Okay, before we get too deep in this, do we have other topics for today?			21:40
toffehoff		Any communication we need to help with relating the license change?			21:40
rweait1		translations for the post on blog...			21:40
harry-wood		yes that need translating			21:41
rweait1		harry-wood shall I send a note to the translators?			21:41
harry-wood		athough confusingly it can also be translated on the wiki			21:41
rweait1		anything else, or should we continue with Ulf?			21:42
harry-wood		if somebody posts a translation on the blog we should make sure it gets copied to the wiki quickly   or vice versa			21:42
harry-wood		what could go wrong ?:-)			21:42
harry-wood		I think mostly we could do with pinging our normal translating folks yes			21:42
rweait1		I will do that tonight.			21:43
toffehoff		Anything we need to do with switch2osm?			21:43
harry-wood		RichardF what d'you think?			21:43
RichardF		nope, don't think so			21:43
harry-wood		looking good			21:43
RichardF		I'll set up some translation infrastructure for it in due course but am waiting for it to calm down first :)			21:44
harry-wood		Aforo mamoemoroere  blasssrssson   was pointing out that we could have a page on google maps javascript & osm tiles			21:44
harry-wood		^my attempt at spelling an icelandic name			21:44
rweait1		What about an "Ulf Moeller Memorial Mapper of the Year Award"  with no attached prize.  Just recognition.			21:45
harry-wood		yeah. that doesn't solve the what to spend the money on question			21:46
harry-wood		but maybe the money could just go to OSMF  …boring though that is			21:46
rweait1		something like: "for recognition of excellence in mapping cycle infrastructure"  			21:46
harry-wood		hehe			21:46
rweait1		we coudl even add the GPS to that until we run out of GPS money.			21:46
RichardF		rweait1: good idea			21:47
rweait1		or "cycle infrastructure and local community."			21:47
toffehoff		Good idea, but the name needs tweaking, so it also hints to cycle-infrastructure.			21:47
rweait1		I'd like to propose that the Foundation chip in an amount for the fund.			21:47
rweait1		toffehoff, sure.			21:48
rweait1		The CyclePath Award.  :-)			21:48
rweait1		(not serious)			21:48
toffehoff		The Off-The-Beaten-Track award.			21:49
harry-wood		The "highway=cycleway or is it cycle=yes" award			21:49
rweait1		Or leave it as "The Ulf Moeller Memorial Award" and leave the details subject to refinement over time...			21:49
toffehoff		We could leave it like that for now.			21:50
toffehoff		More interesting are the criteria for the award.			21:50
rweait1		Do we leave criteria and judging in the hands of CWG as well?			21:51
toffehoff		I think we can agree on it being a nomination-based award.			21:51
toffehoff		That's a good question...			21:51
harry-wood		unless we don't get enough nominations			21:51
toffehoff		I didn't say who needs to nominate ;-)			21:51
rweait1		maybe email ideas this week and I'll provide a summary for next week?			21:52
harry-wood		Also what if we get an embarrassing amount of money to spend on an award?			21:52
toffehoff		We could let the community vote on the winner.			21:52
rweait1		With the goal of hiving this done and ready to annoucemnext week.			21:52
rweait1		harry-wood.  That could happen.			21:52
rweait1		Include a bike in the first award?			21:52
rweait1		Buy a server for cycle map tiles?			21:53
JonathanB		We could approach a bike manufacturer for the first year			21:53
rweait1		Oh yes, we could			21:53
rweait1		+1			21:53
toffehoff		+1			21:53
rweait1		and thne buy a bike for the second year.			21:53
rweait1		etc.			21:53
rweait1		One problem at a time I guess.			21:53
toffehoff		:-)			21:54
toffehoff		It's getting near the hour.			21:54
rweait1		Thanks for indulging me.			21:54
harry-wood		so if we have get an embarrassing amount of money then it goes to next years prize fund			21:54
rweait1		we can adapt.  			21:54
toffehoff		I would be great if we can make something lasting out of it.			21:54
RichardF		a bike is a really great idea.			21:55
rweait1		We could make an annual donation to a victims of violence fund or something.			21:55
rweait1		Provide map consulting for a victim shelter.			21:55
toffehoff		Let's see how much we end up with first....			21:55
rweait1		Okay.  Send me brainstorms this week.			21:55
rweait1		and bike manufacturers.			21:56
rweait1		anything else?			21:56
harry-wood		sounds like a plan			21:56
harry-wood		I went to management team meeting on Wednesday			21:56
harry-wood		we discussed one topic only.  License change and the DB "rebuild" process			21:57
harry-wood		There's a rebuild mailing list where technicalities of a the DB rebuild are being discussed.			21:58
rweait1		How'd that go?			21:58
harry-wood		This is super-important   and on the critical path for license changeover on april 1st			21:58
harry-wood		but it's not particularly helpful to shout about that mailing list far and wide and try to get lots of people on there.			21:59
harry-wood		The communication challenge is mainly this contact & re-map campaign			22:00
harry-wood		There was some lively discussion about whether or not april 1st should be regarded as a solid deadline.			22:01
rweait1		what were the arguments for and against?			22:01
harry-wood		Frederick is very involved in the technicalities and was keen to say that the job should be done right, and if this mean taking a month or two longer, then so be it			22:02
harry-wood		SteveC said …some things which wound up Frederick			22:03
rweait1		oh really?			22:04
harry-wood		suffice to say there will certainly be some people who regard it as a major failure if we do not hit the April 1st deadline			22:04
JonathanB		For what reason?			22:04
harry-wood		major failure of the board,  the foundation,   and of OpenStreetMap   (from an outsiders perspective)			22:04
rweait1		hmm, I don't recall that from any discussion at LWG.  We all just want it done right.			22:04
RichardF		I think we'll hit it.			22:05
rweait1		How so from outsiders?  What do outsiders know about it?			22:05
toffehoff		"They can't get anything done" "They are an unreliable group" that kind of thing.			22:05
JonathanB		rweait1: +1			22:05
rweait1		The license change is such a tiny, arcane bit of nonsense.  			22:05
rweait1		It's important to US, but outsiders?!?!			22:05
harry-wood		Well there's a fun debate to have there certainly			22:05
rweait1		Every time I speak to groups about the license, they glaze over with indifference.			22:05
rweait1		Who, outside of OSM(F) could possibly care?			22:06
toffehoff		Organisations who want to use OSM data.			22:06
rweait1		Not iPhone app authers.  They jsut want free tiles. :-)			22:06
toffehoff		Companies in the automotive industry			22:06
RichardF		why wouldn't we hit it? we know what we're doing and we've got the smartest technical guys there are.			22:07
rweait1		Right.  			22:07
harry-wood		yes.  My view is we should be aiming to hit it.  We've got two months.  Lots can happen in two months			22:07
rweait1		But why would we care what Anonymous auto manufacturer says, if Frederik says we need another four weeks?			22:08
harry-wood		so the work of the "rebuild" group is super important			22:08
JonathanB		We can definitely hit it in as much as we can start offering an ODBL-only planet			22:08
toffehoff		There are two things: the remapping effort and the rebuilt effort.			22:08
rweait1		Really.  If anonymous auto manufacturer is so interested, where are they helping us?			22:08
toffehoff		Who says that they aren't?			22:08
rweait1		They know that we do everything with volunteers don't they?			22:09
toffehoff		Yes, but at some point they are not waiting any longer. Having heard we're working on a new license for more than a year ....			22:09
harry-wood		Are we having a practice run for the debate we need to have with the community when we don't hit the target date? :-)			22:10
rweait1		toffehoff.  So what?			22:10
Blackadder left the room (quit: Quit: heading for the next unmapped place=).			22:10
rweait1		How does that affect them?			22:10
rweait1		effect.			22:10
toffehoff		You mean, how the license effect them?			22:11
rweait1		Yeah.  Why do they care?			22:11
rweait1		And if they care, why aren't they helping, instead of hiding?			22:11
toffehoff		Having way much more clarity on the derived works.			22:11
rweait1		Sounds like nonsense to me.  I can't see an auto manufacturer caring a bit about the license.			22:12
toffehoff		Recently talked with a municipality in NL. They want to use OSM as background layer. But not want to open up some of their data due to privacy issues and such.			22:12
RichardF		would encourage people to remap rather than arguing about whether or not we might hit it ;)			22:13
RichardF		and yes, I am saying that with Cornwall open in P2 on my other monitor!			22:13
rweait1		and with that change of subject, are we done?  :-)			22:13
toffehoff		I think we are.			22:13
harry-wood		Regarding CWG.  We may well be in the position of defending the "failures" on this one, but for now I think we can agree that it would be ….nice  ….if we hit the april 1st target			22:14
harry-wood		other communcation aspects			22:14
harry-wood		are all about contact & remap campaign			22:14
harry-wood		if we can think of any way CWG can assist the "rebuild" group…    we should do it			22:14
harry-wood		e.g.  do they want regular conference calls which we can help with in some way?  probably not.  Mostly we'd be getting in the way I imagine			22:15
rweait1		Mike's not shy.  He'll ask if he wants something.			22:15
toffehoff		I think our focus should be on contact & remap campaign.			22:15
rweait1		LWG meetings are Tuesdays			22:15
rweait1		All done then?  same/same next week?			22:16
toffehoff		'Til next week!			22:16
harry-wood		ok!			22:17
RichardF		bye!			22:17
harry-wood		bye the way I propose the previous minutes			22:17
harry-wood		which jonathanB has formatted nicely			22:18
toffehoff		I'll second.			22:18
harry-wood		( http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/CWG_meeting_2012-01-23 ) excellent			22:18
toffehoff		going offline now. Bye!			22:19
toffehoff left the room.			22:19