[00:58:29] * toffehoff fixing myself a coffee ....
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[01:00:04] <toffehoff> Hello all. It's getting to the hour.
[01:00:07] seav is now known as seav-OSMPH
[01:00:29] <toffehoff> Just a household issue.
[01:00:37] <toffehoff> Anyone able to log this session?
[01:00:49] <karida> I'm logging alread for OSM Japan
[01:00:57] <karida> http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/index.html
[01:01:07] <karida> Just wanted to write it when you asked
[01:01:24] <toffehoff> karida: thanks!
[01:01:38] <toffehoff> How's life now in Japan?
[01:02:01] <karida> I'm in Osaka, so there it's OK. But the news are not good.
[01:02:33] <toffehoff> That's also what I hear here in Europe.
[01:02:44] <karida> I'm logging this for the rest of the OSM Japan community, because they're busy with mapping.
[01:02:46] <toffehoff> Best of luck to you all.
[01:02:51] <karida> Thank you!
[01:03:03] <toffehoff> Anyways. It's past the hour.
[01:03:35] <toffehoff> Let's start off with introducing ourselves.
[01:03:54] <toffehoff> I'm Henk Hoff, the Netherlands. Member of the OSMF board.
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[01:04:30] <toffehoff> Who else do we have on this chat.
[01:04:31] <toffehoff> ?
[01:04:35] <karida> I'm Daniel Kastl, German, but living in Japan and active in OSM Japan community
[01:04:44] <seav-OSMPH> I'm Eugene Villar, seav in OSM, and President of OSM Philippines
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[01:05:14] <toffehoff> Hello Daniel and Eugene.
[01:05:21] <seav-OSMPH> Hi Henk
[01:05:25] <RigacciOrg> I'm Niccolo RIgacci, from Italy. I'member of OSMF and vice-president of GFOSS.it, an association which is thinking about applying to be the Italian OSM Local Chapter.
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[01:05:47] <toffehoff> Hello Niccolo
[01:05:54] <RigacciOrg> Hi to all!
[01:06:02] <jaakl> Hello, I'm Jaak from Estonia, openstreetmap.ee
[01:06:15] <karida> Hi Jaak
[01:06:16] <toffehoff> Hello Jaak!
[01:06:28] <seav-OSMPH> Hi everyone
[01:06:30] <toffehoff> I think osmj-log is just a logger?
[01:06:35] <karida> Right
[01:06:39] <karida> http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/index.html
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[01:06:44] <karida> If you missed the start
[01:06:44] <toffehoff> Ok.
[01:07:07] <toffehoff> Welcome all to this (Local) Chapters meeting.
[01:07:13] <toffehoff> Like I mentioned in my mail...
[01:08:03] <toffehoff> I think it's good to start of with having our expectations on the table.
[01:08:14] <toffehoff> It can help our future discussions.
[01:08:27] <karida> so you mean point (3), right?
[01:08:33] <karida> - What do you expect from the Foundation?
[01:08:47] <toffehoff> yes, but also 1 and 2.
[01:08:56] <toffehoff> Doesn't have to be long.
[01:09:08] <toffehoff> Just to give an impression what you all are working on.
[01:09:21] <toffehoff> Are we all thinking the same, or are there major differences.
[01:09:39] <toffehoff> 3 may come out of 1 and 2.
[01:09:48] <karida> Well, I think the goals of the Japan local chapter is pretty much the same as OSMF
[01:10:29] <seav-OSMPH> Well, we in the Philippines started OSMPH just so that we already have a legal entity in case we need to enter agreements or contracts in support of our mapping activities here
[01:10:39] <karida> The same in JApan
[01:11:05] <toffehoff> So Japan and Philippines are focussed on mapping activities.
[01:11:06] <toffehoff> ?
[01:11:11] <karida> It helps a lot to talk with government for example
[01:11:25] <seav-OSMPH> So far, we have not really invoked the organization very much: there's quite a lot that individual mappers can do already by themselves
[01:11:46] <karida> Yes, but also in localizing and providing infrastructure for the Japanese community
[01:12:00] <jaakl> What we do:(1)usual social events, seminars, trainings for geography teachers (2) state-sponsored project for local servers (Estonian specific maps, translated community info etc) (3) some imports
[01:12:06] <toffehoff> karida: what do you mean with that?
[01:12:31] <karida> Well, in Japan Japanese language support for software and tuturials is crucial
[01:13:01] <toffehoff> Ah! That makes sense :-)
[01:13:43] <karida> But this didn't change much before and after we established OSMF Japan
[01:13:53] <toffehoff> To summarize: this all about promoting OSM and broaden the community.
[01:14:01] <karida> It was more the legal entity that was missing
[01:14:06] <seav-OSMPH> we also want to keep the organization and the mapping community separate from each other
[01:14:40] <seav-OSMPH> i.e., there's no need to become a member of OSMPH to edit or use OSM data
[01:14:58] <karida> Same in Japan. OSMF Japan is there to support the community for example by collecting funding, etc
[01:15:03] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH: like with OMSF
[01:15:38] <seav-OSMPH> @toffehoff, yup
[01:16:03] <seav-OSMPH> the org is just there to support the mapping efforts of the community
[01:16:15] <toffehoff> Again to summarize: it looks like we all here have similar goals / activities
[01:16:37] <seav-OSMPH> so far, the only visible thing is that the org owns the domain name openstreetmap.org.ph
[01:17:00] <karida> Yes, I think that everyone here took OSMF as an example, right?
[01:17:01] <seav-OSMPH> we have not had the need so far to enter into agreements or contracts
[01:17:34] <toffehoff> Now we've set that picture ....
[01:17:41] <RigacciOrg> At GFOSS.it we wish to understand what are the guidelines for Local Chapters. One of the most interesting question is: will a national L.C. have the exclusive right to be called so? We (GFOSS.it) have a great interest in freeing existing geographic data; there is a little bias respect to the OSM Italian Community, which seems just focused on choosing the right tags.
[01:19:14] <toffehoff> RigacciOrg: the major thing of setting up "official" Local Chapters, is to have clarity on who/what is OSM in a specific country/region.
[01:19:15] <seav-OSMPH> in addition, the org (OSMPH) will not handle community and editing issues
[01:19:38] <karida> RigacciOrg: probably the German FOSSGIS e.V. is similar to your case
[01:20:07] <toffehoff> +1
[01:20:13] <seav-OSMPH> anyway, we've outlined what OSMPH Inc. is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_Philippines_Inc.
[01:20:40] <karida> seav-OSMPH: I saw this already. It's nice description
[01:20:58] <seav-OSMPH> @karida, thanks!
[01:21:09] <karida> OSMF Japan made a quick temporary site: http://www.osmf.jp
[01:21:36] <karida> All in Japanese, so I want to add a page like OSMPH to the wiki someday
[01:21:39] <toffehoff> I presume you all are mentioned on: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Local_chapter#Existing_local_chapters
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[01:21:58] <seav-OSMPH> @toffehoff, yup
[01:22:19] <karida> yes
[01:22:30] <toffehoff> Great work to what you all already have done!
[01:22:48] <toffehoff> Slowly getting to question 3:
[01:22:55] <toffehoff> What do you all expect from the Foundation?
[01:23:12] <seav-OSMPH> official recognition would be first, I think
[01:23:30] <karida> +1
[01:23:44] <jaakl> +1
[01:24:04] <seav-OSMPH> I'm also a member of Wikimedia Philippines and I really like the local chapters model of the Wikimedia Foundation
[01:24:32] <seav-OSMPH> But I'm not so sure how that will translate to OSM since OSMF is a membership org, while WMF is not
[01:25:07] <toffehoff> We've had some interesting discussions about membership in the past.
[01:25:30] <toffehoff> Let's not get distracted by "problems".
[01:25:37] <toffehoff> for now....
[01:25:40] <karida> I think I have asked once how to actually apply for membership .
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[01:26:06] <toffehoff> yes, I've seen it.
[01:26:17] <karida> I don't think it's something that is essential for local chapters, but it would be nice to be part of the "big" OSMF
[01:26:44] <seav-OSMPH> regarding the membership issue, I think that the rough consensus before was that it's not a good idea to require local chapter members to also be a member of OSMF
[01:27:03] <toffehoff> But is the only thing you need from the Foundation is recognition?
[01:27:15] <seav-OSMPH> ...the problem being legal issues in some countries
[01:27:30] <jaakl> recognition would include also right to use trademarks
[01:27:37] <seav-OSMPH> +1
[01:27:48] <karida> I think this trademark issues is somehow unclear right now
[01:27:53] <seav-OSMPH> support for developing countries would be nice too
[01:28:07] <seav-OSMPH> we don't have the resources that developed countries have
[01:28:08] <toffehoff> what do you mean with support?
[01:28:10] <karida> nobody wants to violate some rules to use the OSMF name for example
[01:28:29] <seav-OSMPH> like grants maybe? :-D
[01:28:38] <seav-OSMPH> to fund local projects?
[01:28:42] <toffehoff> Gotya!
[01:28:47] <seav-OSMPH> OSMtogo is one example
[01:28:56] <toffehoff> the GPS2go program?
[01:29:04] <toffehoff> (if you're familiar with it)
[01:29:05] <seav-OSMPH> oops
[01:29:07] <seav-OSMPH> yup
[01:29:10] <seav-OSMPH> GPStogo
[01:29:36] <seav-OSMPH> OSMPH already has 4 GPS units sent by OSMF
[01:29:46] <toffehoff> Just so you know: we're working on revamping that project.
[01:30:17] <seav-OSMPH> i see
[01:30:20] <toffehoff> That's what I thought :-)
[01:30:33] <toffehoff> So":
[01:30:39] <jaakl> AFAIK WMF does kind of central fundrising and then spreads some of that to local chapters, right?
[01:30:39] <toffehoff> - Recognition
[01:30:49] <toffehoff> - Use of name / Trademarks
[01:30:54] <seav-OSMPH> @jaakl, yes
[01:30:54] <toffehoff> - Helping with funding
[01:31:29] <toffehoff> how's the other way round work with WMF?
[01:31:40] <toffehoff> Funding found by the chapter?
[01:31:45] <seav-OSMPH> for Wikimedia chapters that have signed an agreement with WMF, they get 50% of the funds raised in the annual fundraiser from donations sent from the chapter's jurisdiction
[01:32:33] <seav-OSMPH> for example, of the recent $16M fundraiser of the WMF, portions of that go directly to the chapters that have agreements with WMF
[01:32:41] <toffehoff> Sounds interesting....
[01:33:20] <jaakl> So if $1M is collected from Philippines, you'd get $0.5M? How much they really collect from outside of US?
[01:33:25] <karida> Interesting point
[01:33:31] <seav-OSMPH> substantial
[01:33:52] <toffehoff> Bit of topic: do you have a template of the agreement the WMF have with their chapters?
[01:34:01] <seav-OSMPH> I don't have the stats, but maybe less than 50% of donations come from the US
[01:34:40] <jaakl> also from developing countries, who would need money more perhaps?
[01:35:48] <seav-OSMPH> WMF: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guidelines_for_future_chapters
[01:36:51] <karida> I think funds and how to share/use them might become a more important topic as OSM attracts more and more "big" companies such as Microsoft, Mapquest, etc..
[01:37:29] <toffehoff> Don't forget the Foundation has also major costs in running the servers ;-)
[01:38:32] <toffehoff> So there may be some interesting points to talk about when it comes to funding.
[01:38:45] <karida> Yes, that's right. Though I think someday servers might also be more distributed. ISM Japan is for example discussing to host a local server.
[01:39:39] <karida> I think also possible sponsors might want to know how their funds will be spent.
[01:39:59] <jaakl> Henk, has actually OSMF tried to make also major funding rounds, or are you planning it?
[01:40:03] <toffehoff> I think so too :-)
[01:40:50] <toffehoff> At the moment the OSMF is only holding a funding round when there is a reason for it.
[01:40:55] <karida> Things like funding are one of the things that don't work without a legal entity for example. And large funding probably needs an international scope (OSMF)
[01:40:55] <toffehoff> E.g. funding for a new server
[01:42:20] <toffehoff> So one thing we definately need some cooperation between Foundation and Chapters is the funding.
[01:42:31] <toffehoff> is = and
[01:43:03] <seav-OSMPH> (Off topic: here's an example agreement between the WMF and a local chapter: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Agreement_between_chapters_and_Wikimedia_Foundation)
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[01:43:34] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH: Thanks.
[01:44:16] <jaakl> right. LC could help funding rounds, but it would be actually easier to have bigger generic rounds where professional paid teams are involved, than to have many smaller rounds for specific stuff
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[01:44:51] <karida> Yes, I think both sides (OSMF and the local chapters) should have some advantages and some duties.
[01:45:45] <toffehoff> hear hear ...
[01:46:06] <toffehoff> karida: back to the local server: you mean a local tile-server?
[01:46:15] <seav-OSMPH> for one thing, the local chapter should never do what OSMF itself would never do
[01:46:28] <karida> Something like that. We are trying to receive some donations.
[01:47:35] <jaakl> we have written a project and got about $40k funding for tileserver and community development activities
[01:47:36] <karida> Japan has very fast internet but connection to Europe for example is not that good.
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[01:48:07] <jaakl> same connection issue here. so in reality there will be distributed server network
[01:48:08] <seav-OSMPH> $40k is quite a lot of money
[01:48:51] <toffehoff> the OSMF has one specific requirement: we have one central database.
[01:49:04] <jaakl> well our project problem is mainly to find own time and specialists to really do all the planned activities
[01:49:20] <toffehoff> Localized tile-servers or development servers should be no problem.
[01:49:23] <seav-OSMPH> but that doesn't mean that there is only 1 central tile-server, right?
[01:49:42] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH: right. That does not mean that.
[01:49:43] <karida> It's of course only rendering or some other kind of data processing, for example routing
[01:50:18] <karida> Often countries have different map designs than the standard one, or different tags have a special importance
[01:50:27] <seav-OSMPH> +1
[01:50:41] <jaakl> especially name-tags
[01:50:47] <seav-OSMPH> localized renderings are one good thing that chapters can offer
[01:51:12] <karida> And also it spreads some knowledge on how to run OpenStreetMap servers
[01:51:28] <karida> It's always good to have knowledge and things more distributed
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[01:52:00] <karida> Especially in Japan a lot of people are interested in the technical part, but there is a language barrier
[01:52:28] <seav-OSMPH> @karida, if it's running mod_tile or tirex, I don't think you really need the OSMF's help there
[01:52:42] <seav-OSMPH> you should go straight to the developers :-)
[01:52:44] <toffehoff> Not to discourage you all, but do not underestimate the effort needed to run a high-speed heavily used tile-server.
[01:52:59] <karida> right ... it doesn't really fir here ;-)
[01:53:30] <toffehoff> It's great having people like you in Japan then :-)
[01:53:43] <toffehoff> OK, it getting to the hour.
[01:54:02] <toffehoff> Trying to round things up.
[01:54:33] <toffehoff> What chapters want from the Foundation is:
[01:54:38] <toffehoff> - Recognition
[01:54:45] <toffehoff> - Use of name and trademarks
[01:54:50] <toffehoff> - Help with funding
[01:55:05] <toffehoff> Am I missing anything?
[01:55:25] <karida> chapters want to know what the foundation wants
[01:55:36] <toffehoff> :-)
[01:55:50] <toffehoff> I would say:
[01:55:56] <toffehoff> - Promote OSM
[01:56:02] <toffehoff> - Broaden our community
[01:56:22] <toffehoff> - Be a voice to the Foundation of issues in your region/country
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[01:57:02] <toffehoff> - A central point of contact for the Foundation if it needs some info from the community.
[01:57:16] <toffehoff> Those kind of things....
[01:57:34] <karida> I see ... thank you! It doesn't sound too difficult.
[01:57:49] <toffehoff> ... and don't do anything stupid that would disgrace our good name and fame.
[01:57:54] <toffehoff> :-)
[01:58:41] <toffehoff> Let me work on you input, the links to the examples of WMF and our previous discussions
[01:58:52] <karida> Well, so probably there needs to be a procedure defined how to apply to become a local chapter, right?
[01:59:21] <toffehoff> That I can come up with a discussion doc on how the relation between Foundation and Chapters would look like.
[01:59:42] <karida> that would be great
[01:59:43] <seav-OSMPH> good luck with that! :-)
[01:59:49] <jaakl> I think besides membership fee issues we have consensus on other issues
[02:00:22] <toffehoff> jaakl: I think we do as well. Hopefully that makes things easier ...
[02:00:49] <toffehoff> karida: defining a procedure in how to become a chapter is also needed.
[02:01:13] <toffehoff> Not sure if I'm able to have a discussion doc ready on that by next time.
[02:01:18] <toffehoff> Talking about next time.
[02:01:23] <karida> I think it would be good to start with some draft and improve it until everyone is happy
[02:01:33] <toffehoff> How is the diffence in time for the meetings?
[02:01:56] <toffehoff> The next one being on a total different day and time of the day...
[02:02:02] <karida> I'm used to funny meeting times, so I'm OK with any time ;-)
[02:02:05] <seav-OSMPH> I won't be available for the planned next meeting
[02:02:29] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH is that because of the planning, or something else?
[02:03:15] <seav-OSMPH> i'm at work on the planned meeting time and we are not allowed internet access at work :-)
[02:03:41] <toffehoff> ok
[02:03:48] <toffehoff> That times would fit you best?
[02:04:02] <toffehoff> that = what
[02:05:09] <toffehoff> OK. Thank you all for joining this call.
[02:05:13] <seav-OSMPH> this time is very convenient actually :-)
[02:05:14] <toffehoff> chat that is...
[02:05:23] <toffehoff> ok
[02:05:28] <karida> thank you, too!
[02:05:40] <toffehoff> Let's have our next meeting as planned on Thursday March 24th at 8am GMT
[02:05:40] <seav-OSMPH> BTW, excellent choice on using IRC this time
[02:05:52] <seav-OSMPH> I couldn't participate in the dial-in teleconference before
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[02:06:04] <karida> I'm also in favor of IRC
[02:06:16] <toffehoff> That's why I tried IRC this time ;_)
[02:06:20] <karida> now others can read the log and I don't need to write a summary ;-)
[02:06:40] <toffehoff> awesome!
[02:06:52] <toffehoff> Let's see how next time is working.
[02:07:07] <toffehoff> If that is not helping us, we can stick to this time.
[02:07:14] <seav-OSMPH> I'll see if I can have another member of OSMPH attend that one
[02:07:25] <seav-OSMPH> *he* has internet access at his work
[02:07:30] <seav-OSMPH> :)
[02:07:46] <toffehoff> Some people have all the luck :-)
[02:08:11] <toffehoff> Again: thanks all! I'll keep you all posted on the mailing-list.
[02:08:21] <seav-OSMPH> thanks toffehoff!
[02:08:26] <karida> +1
[02:09:38] <RigacciOrg> Hi to all, I must leave. See you at next meetings.
[02:09:44] <toffehoff> karida: when can I see the log?
[02:09:54] <RigacciOrg> Thank you for using IRC instead of voice.
[02:10:00] <karida> It's always here: http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/index.html
[02:10:01] <toffehoff> Bye Niccolo
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[02:10:19] <seav-OSMPH> @karida, the page seems blank?
[02:10:32] <seav-OSMPH> ah
[02:10:38] <seav-OSMPH> there's a link!
[02:10:39] <karida> Oh there is a tiny link: http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/2011-03-16.html
[02:10:47] <karida> It's just the first day of logging
[02:10:59] <karida> it's very minimalistic logger ;-)
[02:11:16] <seav-OSMPH> hehe
[02:11:20] <seav-OSMPH> thanks for logging
[02:11:24] <toffehoff> It works: that's what matters.
[02:11:28] <toffehoff> +1
[02:11:38] <toffehoff> I also have to leave.
[02:11:43] <karida> me, too
[02:11:51] <karida> bye
[02:11:53] <toffehoff> Bye all. Till next time!
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[02:13:20] <seav-OSMPH> bye! gotta sleep :-)