Local Chapters Working Group/Meeting 2011-03-16

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IRC Name Present Apologies
karida Daniel Kastl y
seav-OSMPH Eugene Alvin Villar y
toffehoff Henk Hoff y
RigacciOrg Niccolo Rigacci y
jaakl Jaak Laineste y

Minutes (Draft)

  • ....


[00:58:29] * toffehoff fixing myself a coffee .... 
[00:59:35] -!- seav [seav!~quassel@] has joined #osm_chapters 
[01:00:04] <toffehoff> Hello all. It's getting to the hour. 
[01:00:07] seav is now known as seav-OSMPH 
[01:00:29] <toffehoff> Just a household issue. 
[01:00:37] <toffehoff> Anyone able to log this session? 
[01:00:49] <karida> I'm logging alread for OSM Japan 
[01:00:57] <karida> http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/index.html 
[01:01:07] <karida> Just wanted to write it when you asked 
[01:01:24] <toffehoff> karida: thanks! 
[01:01:38] <toffehoff> How's life now in Japan? 
[01:02:01] <karida> I'm in Osaka, so there it's OK. But the news are not good. 
[01:02:33] <toffehoff> That's also what I hear here in Europe. 
[01:02:44] <karida> I'm logging this for the rest of the OSM Japan community, because they're busy with mapping. 
[01:02:46] <toffehoff> Best of luck to you all. 
[01:02:51] <karida> Thank you! 
[01:03:03] <toffehoff> Anyways. It's past the hour. 
[01:03:35] <toffehoff> Let's start off with introducing ourselves. 
[01:03:54] <toffehoff> I'm Henk Hoff, the Netherlands. Member of the OSMF board. 
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[01:04:30] <toffehoff> Who else do we have on this chat. 
[01:04:31] <toffehoff> ? 
[01:04:35] <karida> I'm Daniel Kastl, German, but living in Japan and active in OSM Japan community 
[01:04:44] <seav-OSMPH> I'm Eugene Villar, seav in OSM, and President of OSM Philippines 
[01:05:11] -!- jaakl [jaakl!~jaakl@] has joined #osm_chapters 
[01:05:14] <toffehoff> Hello Daniel and Eugene. 
[01:05:21] <seav-OSMPH> Hi Henk 
[01:05:25] <RigacciOrg> I'm Niccolo RIgacci, from Italy. I'member of OSMF and vice-president of GFOSS.it, an association which is thinking about applying to be the Italian OSM Local Chapter. 
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[01:05:47] <toffehoff> Hello Niccolo 
[01:05:54] <RigacciOrg> Hi to all! 
[01:06:02] <jaakl> Hello, I'm Jaak from Estonia, openstreetmap.ee 
[01:06:15] <karida> Hi Jaak 
[01:06:16] <toffehoff> Hello Jaak! 
[01:06:28] <seav-OSMPH> Hi everyone 
[01:06:30] <toffehoff> I think osmj-log is just a logger? 
[01:06:35] <karida> Right 
[01:06:39] <karida> http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/index.html 
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[01:06:44] <karida> If you missed the start 
[01:06:44] <toffehoff> Ok. 
[01:07:07] <toffehoff> Welcome all to this (Local) Chapters meeting. 
[01:07:13] <toffehoff> Like I mentioned in my mail... 
[01:08:03] <toffehoff> I think it's good to start of with having our expectations on the table. 
[01:08:14] <toffehoff> It can help our future discussions. 
[01:08:27] <karida> so you mean point (3), right? 
[01:08:33] <karida> - What do you expect from the Foundation? 
[01:08:47] <toffehoff> yes, but also 1 and 2. 
[01:08:56] <toffehoff> Doesn't have to be long. 
[01:09:08] <toffehoff> Just to give an impression what you all are working on. 
[01:09:21] <toffehoff> Are we all thinking the same, or are there major differences. 
[01:09:39] <toffehoff> 3 may come out of 1 and 2. 
[01:09:48] <karida> Well, I think the goals of the Japan local chapter is pretty much the same as OSMF 
[01:10:29] <seav-OSMPH> Well, we in the Philippines started OSMPH just so that we already have a legal entity in case we need to enter agreements or contracts in support of our mapping activities here 
[01:10:39] <karida> The same in JApan 
[01:11:05] <toffehoff> So Japan and Philippines are focussed on mapping activities. 
[01:11:06] <toffehoff> ? 
[01:11:11] <karida> It helps a lot to talk with government for example 
[01:11:25] <seav-OSMPH> So far, we have not really invoked the organization very much: there's quite a lot that individual mappers can do already by themselves 
[01:11:46] <karida> Yes, but also in localizing and providing infrastructure for the Japanese community 
[01:12:00] <jaakl> What we do:(1)usual social events, seminars, trainings for geography teachers (2) state-sponsored project for local servers (Estonian specific maps, translated community info etc) (3) some imports 
[01:12:06] <toffehoff> karida: what do you mean with that? 
[01:12:31] <karida> Well, in Japan Japanese language support for software and tuturials is crucial 
[01:13:01] <toffehoff> Ah! That makes sense :-) 
[01:13:43] <karida> But this didn't change much before and after we established OSMF Japan 
[01:13:53] <toffehoff> To summarize: this all about promoting OSM and broaden the community. 
[01:14:01] <karida> It was more the legal entity that was missing 
[01:14:06] <seav-OSMPH> we also want to keep the organization and the mapping community separate from each other 
[01:14:40] <seav-OSMPH> i.e., there's no need to become a member of OSMPH to edit or use OSM data 
[01:14:58] <karida> Same in Japan. OSMF Japan is there to support the community for example by collecting funding, etc 
[01:15:03] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH: like with OMSF 
[01:15:38] <seav-OSMPH> @toffehoff, yup 
[01:16:03] <seav-OSMPH> the org is just there to support the mapping efforts of the community 
[01:16:15] <toffehoff> Again to summarize: it looks like we all here have similar goals / activities 
[01:16:37] <seav-OSMPH> so far, the only visible thing is that the org owns the domain name openstreetmap.org.ph 
[01:17:00] <karida> Yes, I think that everyone here took OSMF as an example, right? 
[01:17:01] <seav-OSMPH> we have not had the need so far to enter into agreements or contracts 
[01:17:34] <toffehoff> Now we've set that picture .... 
[01:17:41] <RigacciOrg> At GFOSS.it we wish to understand what are the guidelines for Local Chapters. One of the most interesting question is: will a national L.C. have the exclusive right to be called so? We (GFOSS.it) have a great interest in freeing existing geographic data; there is a little bias respect to the OSM Italian Community, which seems just focused on choosing the right tags. 
[01:19:14] <toffehoff> RigacciOrg: the major thing of setting up "official" Local Chapters, is to have clarity on who/what is OSM in a specific country/region. 
[01:19:15] <seav-OSMPH> in addition, the org (OSMPH) will not handle community and editing issues 
[01:19:38] <karida> RigacciOrg: probably the German FOSSGIS e.V. is similar to your case 
[01:20:07] <toffehoff> +1 
[01:20:13] <seav-OSMPH> anyway, we've outlined what OSMPH Inc. is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_Philippines_Inc. 
[01:20:40] <karida> seav-OSMPH: I saw this already. It's nice description 
[01:20:58] <seav-OSMPH> @karida, thanks! 
[01:21:09] <karida> OSMF Japan made a quick temporary site: http://www.osmf.jp 
[01:21:36] <karida> All in Japanese, so I want to add a page like OSMPH to the wiki someday 
[01:21:39] <toffehoff> I presume you all are mentioned on: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Local_chapter#Existing_local_chapters 
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[01:21:58] <seav-OSMPH> @toffehoff, yup 
[01:22:19] <karida> yes 
[01:22:30] <toffehoff> Great work to what you all already have done! 
[01:22:48] <toffehoff> Slowly getting to question 3: 
[01:22:55] <toffehoff> What do you all expect from the Foundation? 
[01:23:12] <seav-OSMPH> official recognition would be first, I think 
[01:23:30] <karida> +1 
[01:23:44] <jaakl> +1 
[01:24:04] <seav-OSMPH> I'm also a member of Wikimedia Philippines and I really like the local chapters model of the Wikimedia Foundation 
[01:24:32] <seav-OSMPH> But I'm not so sure how that will translate to OSM since OSMF is a membership org, while WMF is not 
[01:25:07] <toffehoff> We've had some interesting discussions about membership in the past. 
[01:25:30] <toffehoff> Let's not get distracted by "problems". 
[01:25:37] <toffehoff> for now.... 
[01:25:40] <karida> I think I have asked once how to actually apply for membership . 
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[01:26:06] <toffehoff> yes, I've seen it. 
[01:26:17] <karida> I don't think it's something that is essential for local chapters, but it would be nice to be part of the "big" OSMF 
[01:26:44] <seav-OSMPH> regarding the membership issue, I think that the rough consensus before was that it's not a good idea to require local chapter members to also be a member of OSMF 
[01:27:03] <toffehoff> But is the only thing you need from the Foundation is recognition? 
[01:27:15] <seav-OSMPH> ...the problem being legal issues in some countries 
[01:27:30] <jaakl> recognition would include also right to use trademarks 
[01:27:37] <seav-OSMPH> +1 
[01:27:48] <karida> I think this trademark issues is somehow unclear right now 
[01:27:53] <seav-OSMPH> support for developing countries would be nice too 
[01:28:07] <seav-OSMPH> we don't have the resources that developed countries have 
[01:28:08] <toffehoff> what do you mean with support? 
[01:28:10] <karida> nobody wants to violate some rules to use the OSMF name for example 
[01:28:29] <seav-OSMPH> like grants maybe? :-D 
[01:28:38] <seav-OSMPH> to fund local projects? 
[01:28:42] <toffehoff> Gotya! 
[01:28:47] <seav-OSMPH> OSMtogo is one example 
[01:28:56] <toffehoff> the GPS2go program? 
[01:29:04] <toffehoff> (if you're familiar with it) 
[01:29:05] <seav-OSMPH> oops 
[01:29:07] <seav-OSMPH> yup 
[01:29:10] <seav-OSMPH> GPStogo 
[01:29:36] <seav-OSMPH> OSMPH already has 4 GPS units sent by OSMF 
[01:29:46] <toffehoff> Just so you know: we're working on revamping that project. 
[01:30:17] <seav-OSMPH> i see 
[01:30:20] <toffehoff> That's what I thought :-) 
[01:30:33] <toffehoff> So": 
[01:30:39] <jaakl> AFAIK WMF does kind of central fundrising and then spreads some of that to local chapters, right? 
[01:30:39] <toffehoff> - Recognition 
[01:30:49] <toffehoff> - Use of name / Trademarks 
[01:30:54] <seav-OSMPH> @jaakl, yes 
[01:30:54] <toffehoff> - Helping with funding 
[01:31:29] <toffehoff> how's the other way round work with WMF? 
[01:31:40] <toffehoff> Funding found by the chapter? 
[01:31:45] <seav-OSMPH> for Wikimedia chapters that have signed an agreement with WMF, they get 50% of the funds raised in the annual fundraiser from donations sent from the chapter's jurisdiction 
[01:32:33] <seav-OSMPH> for example, of the recent $16M fundraiser of the WMF, portions of that go directly to the chapters that have agreements with WMF 
[01:32:41] <toffehoff> Sounds interesting.... 
[01:33:20] <jaakl> So if $1M is collected from Philippines, you'd get $0.5M? How much they really collect from outside of US? 
[01:33:25] <karida> Interesting point 
[01:33:31] <seav-OSMPH> substantial 
[01:33:52] <toffehoff> Bit of topic: do you have a template of the agreement the WMF have with their chapters? 
[01:34:01] <seav-OSMPH> I don't have the stats, but maybe less than 50% of donations come from the US 
[01:34:40] <jaakl> also from developing countries, who would need money more perhaps? 
[01:35:48] <seav-OSMPH> WMF: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guidelines_for_future_chapters 
[01:36:51] <karida> I think funds and how to share/use them might become a more important topic as OSM attracts more and more "big" companies such as Microsoft, Mapquest, etc.. 
[01:37:29] <toffehoff> Don't forget the Foundation has also major costs in running the servers ;-) 
[01:38:32] <toffehoff> So there may be some interesting points to talk about when it comes to funding. 
[01:38:45] <karida> Yes, that's right. Though I think someday servers might also be more distributed. ISM Japan is for example discussing to host a local server. 
[01:39:39] <karida> I think also possible sponsors might want to know how their funds will be spent. 
[01:39:59] <jaakl> Henk, has actually OSMF tried to make also major funding rounds, or are you planning it? 
[01:40:03] <toffehoff> I think so too :-) 
[01:40:50] <toffehoff> At the moment the OSMF is only holding a funding round when there is a reason for it. 
[01:40:55] <karida> Things like funding are one of the things that don't work without a legal entity for example. And large funding probably needs an international scope (OSMF) 
[01:40:55] <toffehoff> E.g. funding for a new server 
[01:42:20] <toffehoff> So one thing we definately need some cooperation between Foundation and Chapters is the funding. 
[01:42:31] <toffehoff> is = and 
[01:43:03] <seav-OSMPH> (Off topic: here's an example agreement between the WMF and a local chapter: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Agreement_between_chapters_and_Wikimedia_Foundation) 
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[01:43:34] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH: Thanks. 
[01:44:16] <jaakl> right. LC could help funding rounds, but it would be actually easier to have bigger generic rounds where professional paid teams are involved, than to have many smaller rounds for specific stuff 
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[01:44:51] <karida> Yes, I think both sides (OSMF and the local chapters) should have some advantages and some duties. 
[01:45:45] <toffehoff> hear hear ... 
[01:46:06] <toffehoff> karida: back to the local server: you mean a local tile-server? 
[01:46:15] <seav-OSMPH> for one thing, the local chapter should never do what OSMF itself would never do 
[01:46:28] <karida> Something like that. We are trying to receive some donations. 
[01:47:35] <jaakl> we have written a project and got about $40k funding for tileserver and community development activities 
[01:47:36] <karida> Japan has very fast internet but connection to Europe for example is not that good. 
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[01:48:07] <jaakl> same connection issue here. so in reality there will be distributed server network 
[01:48:08] <seav-OSMPH> $40k is quite a lot of money 
[01:48:51] <toffehoff> the OSMF has one specific requirement: we have one central database. 
[01:49:04] <jaakl> well our project problem is mainly to find own time and specialists to really do all the planned activities 
[01:49:20] <toffehoff> Localized tile-servers or development servers should be no problem. 
[01:49:23] <seav-OSMPH> but that doesn't mean that there is only 1 central tile-server, right? 
[01:49:42] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH: right. That does not mean that. 
[01:49:43] <karida> It's of course only rendering or some other kind of data processing, for example routing 
[01:50:18] <karida> Often countries have different map designs than the standard one, or different tags have a special importance 
[01:50:27] <seav-OSMPH> +1 
[01:50:41] <jaakl> especially name-tags 
[01:50:47] <seav-OSMPH> localized renderings are one good thing that chapters can offer 
[01:51:12] <karida> And also it spreads some knowledge on how to run OpenStreetMap servers 
[01:51:28] <karida> It's always good to have knowledge and things more distributed 
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[01:52:00] <karida> Especially in Japan a lot of people are interested in the technical part, but there is a language barrier 
[01:52:28] <seav-OSMPH> @karida, if it's running mod_tile or tirex, I don't think you really need the OSMF's help there 
[01:52:42] <seav-OSMPH> you should go straight to the developers :-) 
[01:52:44] <toffehoff> Not to discourage you all, but do not underestimate the effort needed to run a high-speed heavily used tile-server. 
[01:52:59] <karida> right ... it doesn't really fir here ;-) 
[01:53:30] <toffehoff> It's great having people like you in Japan then :-) 
[01:53:43] <toffehoff> OK, it getting to the hour. 
[01:54:02] <toffehoff> Trying to round things up. 
[01:54:33] <toffehoff> What chapters want from the Foundation is: 
[01:54:38] <toffehoff> - Recognition 
[01:54:45] <toffehoff> - Use of name and trademarks 
[01:54:50] <toffehoff> - Help with funding 
[01:55:05] <toffehoff> Am I missing anything? 
[01:55:25] <karida> chapters want to know what the foundation wants 
[01:55:36] <toffehoff> :-) 
[01:55:50] <toffehoff> I would say: 
[01:55:56] <toffehoff> - Promote OSM 
[01:56:02] <toffehoff> - Broaden our community 
[01:56:22] <toffehoff> - Be a voice to the Foundation of issues in your region/country 
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[01:57:02] <toffehoff> - A central point of contact for the Foundation if it needs some info from the community. 
[01:57:16] <toffehoff> Those kind of things.... 
[01:57:34] <karida> I see ... thank you! It doesn't sound too difficult. 
[01:57:49] <toffehoff> ... and don't do anything stupid that would disgrace our good name and fame. 
[01:57:54] <toffehoff> :-) 
[01:58:41] <toffehoff> Let me work on you input, the links to the examples of WMF and our previous discussions 
[01:58:52] <karida> Well, so probably there needs to be a procedure defined how to apply to become a local chapter, right? 
[01:59:21] <toffehoff> That I can come up with a discussion doc on how the relation between Foundation and Chapters would look like. 
[01:59:42] <karida> that would be great 
[01:59:43] <seav-OSMPH> good luck with that! :-) 
[01:59:49] <jaakl> I think besides membership fee issues we have consensus on other issues 
[02:00:22] <toffehoff> jaakl: I think we do as well. Hopefully that makes things easier ... 
[02:00:49] <toffehoff> karida: defining a procedure in how to become a chapter is also needed. 
[02:01:13] <toffehoff> Not sure if I'm able to have a discussion doc ready on that by next time. 
[02:01:18] <toffehoff> Talking about next time. 
[02:01:23] <karida> I think it would be good to start with some draft and improve it until everyone is happy 
[02:01:33] <toffehoff> How is the diffence in time for the meetings? 
[02:01:56] <toffehoff> The next one being on a total different day and time of the day... 
[02:02:02] <karida> I'm used to funny meeting times, so I'm OK with any time ;-) 
[02:02:05] <seav-OSMPH> I won't be available for the planned next meeting 
[02:02:29] <toffehoff> seav-OSMPH is that because of the planning, or something else? 
[02:03:15] <seav-OSMPH> i'm at work on the planned meeting time and we are not allowed internet access at work :-) 
[02:03:41] <toffehoff> ok 
[02:03:48] <toffehoff> That times would fit you best? 
[02:04:02] <toffehoff> that = what 
[02:05:09] <toffehoff> OK. Thank you all for joining this call. 
[02:05:13] <seav-OSMPH> this time is very convenient actually :-) 
[02:05:14] <toffehoff> chat that is... 
[02:05:23] <toffehoff> ok 
[02:05:28] <karida> thank you, too! 
[02:05:40] <toffehoff> Let's have our next meeting as planned on Thursday March 24th at 8am GMT 
[02:05:40] <seav-OSMPH> BTW, excellent choice on using IRC this time 
[02:05:52] <seav-OSMPH> I couldn't participate in the dial-in teleconference before 
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[02:06:04] <karida> I'm also in favor of IRC 
[02:06:16] <toffehoff> That's why I tried IRC this time ;_) 
[02:06:20] <karida> now others can read the log and I don't need to write a summary ;-) 
[02:06:40] <toffehoff> awesome! 
[02:06:52] <toffehoff> Let's see how next time is working. 
[02:07:07] <toffehoff> If that is not helping us, we can stick to this time. 
[02:07:14] <seav-OSMPH> I'll see if I can have another member of OSMPH attend that one 
[02:07:25] <seav-OSMPH> *he* has internet access at his work 
[02:07:30] <seav-OSMPH> :) 
[02:07:46] <toffehoff> Some people have all the luck :-) 
[02:08:11] <toffehoff> Again: thanks all! I'll keep you all posted on the mailing-list. 
[02:08:21] <seav-OSMPH> thanks toffehoff! 
[02:08:26] <karida> +1 
[02:09:38] <RigacciOrg> Hi to all, I must leave. See you at next meetings. 
[02:09:44] <toffehoff> karida: when can I see the log? 
[02:09:54] <RigacciOrg> Thank you for using IRC instead of voice. 
[02:10:00] <karida> It's always here: http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/index.html 
[02:10:01] <toffehoff> Bye Niccolo 
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[02:10:19] <seav-OSMPH> @karida, the page seems blank? 
[02:10:32] <seav-OSMPH> ah 
[02:10:38] <seav-OSMPH> there's a link! 
[02:10:39] <karida> Oh there is a tiny link: http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/2011-03-16.html 
[02:10:47] <karida> It's just the first day of logging 
[02:10:59] <karida> it's very minimalistic logger ;-) 
[02:11:16] <seav-OSMPH> hehe 
[02:11:20] <seav-OSMPH> thanks for logging 
[02:11:24] <toffehoff> It works: that's what matters. 
[02:11:28] <toffehoff> +1 
[02:11:38] <toffehoff> I also have to leave. 
[02:11:43] <karida> me, too 
[02:11:51] <karida> bye 
[02:11:53] <toffehoff> Bye all. Till next time! 
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[02:13:20] <seav-OSMPH> bye! gotta sleep :-)