Difference between revisions of "Local Chapters Working Group/Meeting 2011-04-19"

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(Created page with "== Attendance == {| class=wikitable ! IRC !! Name !! Present !! Apologies |- | karida || Daniel Kastl || y || |- | seav...")
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toffehoff: Goodmorning!
[16:56] karida: Thanks ... not yet. Here it's midnight
[16:57] karida: I'm completely unprepared today
[16:57] toffehoff: Just got home as well...
[16:57] toffehoff: Trying to get things organized now.
[16:58] toffehoff: Daniel Kastl mentioned he may not be able to join today.
[16:58] karida: That's me
[16:58] karida: So I'm here
[16:58] toffehoff: I was a bit confused...
[16:59] karida: For OTFC I'm using my OSM account name
[16:59] toffehoff: I first thought it was you, but then the deadline thing got me off track...
[16:59] toffehoff: Thought it had to be someone in the European timezone.....
[16:59] toffehoff: Or are you in Germany right now?
[16:59] karida: no problem ... kind of timezone-less life here
[17:00] karida: I'm in Japan
[17:00] toffehoff: How's life in Japan now....?
[17:00] karida: As I'm in Osaka nothing has really changed to before, or right after the earthquake
[17:01] karida: I'm just following the news
[17:01] toffehoff: OK, just read there was a shortage of fuel etc.
[17:01] toffehoff: Merely because of the supply-chain being broken (roads, trucks, etc)
[17:02] karida: It's more expensive now than before and in the supermarkets you are told to not buy more water than you need
[17:02] karida: West and East Japan have even different power network with different voltage
[17:02] toffehoff: huh?
[17:02] karida: 100V to 110V
[17:02] toffehoff: Whow, didn't know that....
[17:03] toffehoff: Does this actually make a difference in electrical equipment?
[17:03] karida: it's weird ... it seems it makes it difficult to transfer energy from one to the other region
[17:03] karida: electric equipment doesn't care much, it seems
[17:04] karida: So in West Japan nothing really changed
[17:05] karida: Though if you know where to get Geiger counters, mapper "ikiya" is from Fukushima and was last weekend at an OSM event in Kobe. He asked if it's possible to get those in Germany
[17:05] karida: But everything sold out there.
[17:05] karida: You maybe know him from SotM
[17:06] toffehoff: Is he the guy who did the State of Japan?
[17:06] karida: I think the other one
[17:06] karida: The one, who came with his son last year
[17:06] toffehoff: he almost being shot by bow&arrow?
[17:07] toffehoff: does not directly ring a bell, have seen too many people.....
[17:07] karida: don't know this story probably. I wasn't yet at a SotM
[17:07] toffehoff: That story was of a talk in Amsterdam.
[17:08] toffehoff: Brilliant!
[17:08] toffehoff: Still remember that one.
[17:08] karida: He is writing this Japanese blog about OSM http://openstreetmap.blogspot.com/
[17:09] karida: He has very good articles how to map ... you can see on the screenshots and images
[17:09] toffehoff: He must have met Steve and Hurricane while they were in Japan (and you probably as well)
[17:10] karida: Yes, I did the Osaka/Kyoto part and he and others the one in Tokyo .
[17:10] toffehoff: Looking at the images, he is good .....
[17:10] toffehoff: How was Steve's japanese?
[17:10] toffehoff: He was trying to learn.....
[17:10] karida: Funny ... he tried a very long and complicated introduction
[17:10] karida: Very advanced
[17:11] toffehoff: Cool, so he actually did that!
[17:12] toffehoff: Looking at the time....
[17:12] toffehoff: Looking at the time....
[17:12] karida: I didn't know he studied that much
[17:12] toffehoff: he had a personal trainer / coach in Seattle.
[17:12] karida: It seems others are caught by deadlines as well
[17:12] karida: It seems others are caught by deadlines as well
[17:13] toffehoff: Think he wanted to show off
[17:13] toffehoff: Think they do as well (deadlines...)
[17:13] toffehoff: Think they do as well (deadlines...)
[17:13] toffehoff: Question....
[17:13] toffehoff: Question....

Latest revision as of 17:27, 26 April 2011


IRC Name Present Apologies
karida Daniel Kastl y
seav Eugene Alvin Villar y
toffehoff Henk Hoff y

Minutes (Draft)

  • ....


[17:12] toffehoff: Looking at the time.... 
[17:12] karida: It seems others are caught by deadlines as well
[17:13] toffehoff: Think they do as well (deadlines...)
[17:13] toffehoff: Question....
[17:14] karida: Well, we can postpone for a week
[17:14] toffehoff: I was going through some draft agreements etc.
[17:14] toffehoff: also looking at the ones of the WMF
[17:15] toffehoff: As a draft, could we just take the WMF ones and tweak them a bit ... ?
[17:15] karida: Well, I haven't looked at it yet.
[17:16] karida: I think it would be nice to have everything ready before SotM ... it would be a nice milestone as probably many of us would be there, right?
[17:16] toffehoff: Would be great.... yes.
[17:16] toffehoff: btw, which SotM do you mean ?
[17:16] toffehoff: EU of Denver?
[17:17] karida: The one in Denver.
[17:17] karida: I can't go to the one in EU
[17:17] toffehoff: Denver is a good choice 
[17:18] toffehoff: I'll be at both ... But that could be expected 
[17:18] karida: I'm usually at FOSS4G, so this year it suits well
[17:18] toffehoff: Awesome. That was also one of the reasons to go for Denver and move it to September.
[17:18] karida: Last years was unlucky, because I couldn't afford to travel to Spain twice
[17:19] toffehoff: Can imagine.
[17:19] karida: Well, we should then maybe organise some local chapter talk/meeting
[17:20] toffehoff: Back to agreement etc. .... Shall I start a document based on the WMF one and change it to what we've discussed before?
[17:20] karida: Yes, that would be nice. I can't help much with legal talk
[17:21] toffehoff: I'm not a legal person as well, but have been in contact with some guys in the past 
[17:22] toffehoff: If we have something like that we can through it to the mailinglist and (hopefully) get some responses.
[17:22] toffehoff: through = throw
[17:24] karida: Do you have any idea how a roadmap could look like if we for example want to have everything done until Denver?
[17:24] karida: Probably the decision making process within OSMF might take quite some time as well
[17:25] toffehoff: Right.....  Thinking about it ....
[17:26] toffehoff: I'm not sure how we should get this thing accepted?
[17:26] karida: I have absolutely now no idea how bureaucratic OSMF is already 
[17:26] toffehoff: Does this needs to be voted on in the AGM...
[17:27] toffehoff: I'll discuss this within board how to get this done ...
[17:27] karida: Probably it's necessary to try to define some roadmap to get to some result in the near future.
[17:27] toffehoff: Absolutely.
[17:28] karida: From the local chapters there is not much to decide, I think, so it's pretty easy.
[17:28] toffehoff: Can we now roughly decide what kind of deliverables we have.
[17:28] toffehoff: - Agreement
[17:28] toffehoff: - Procedure how to become an LC
[17:29] toffehoff: Anything else?
[17:29] karida: I don't think it needs more
[17:29] karida: Something to sign and some rules
[17:30] toffehoff: Should we try and do both at the same time?
[17:30] karida: Probably the agreement can be derived from the procedure and requirements to become a LC
[17:30] seav betrad het kanaal.
[17:31] seav: sorry i'm late
[17:31] toffehoff: Hello!
[17:31] karida: hi
[17:31] toffehoff: Just discussing a roadmap ... which steps to take  ....
[17:31] seav: ok, i'm reviewing the log
[17:31] karida:        http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/2011-04-20.html    
[17:32] seav: karida, very useful btw
[17:32] karida: we had a discussion about privacy and IRC logs in the Japanese community
[17:32] karida: no everyone likes the logs
[17:33] seav: i see
[17:33] karida: so we decided to exclude them from search through robots.txt
[17:34] seav: well, we aren't really talking about confidential stuff, right?
[17:34] karida: right ... you better don't do this on IRC anyway 
[17:35] seav: anyway, regarding talking stuff from WMF, wasn't this done before?
[17:35] toffehoff: We talked about it before.
[17:35] toffehoff: Was looking at the text and thought about copying it. Felt a bit like stealing....
[17:36] seav: i remember seeing a sorta "how to become a local chapter" document somewhere that I recognized came from wikimedia
[17:36] seav: back in 2009
[17:36] toffehoff: Could be.
[17:36] toffehoff: I now was refering to the agreement.
[17:36] seav: the main problem was that it wouldn't fit the german situation
[17:36] toffehoff: We can tweak it...
[17:37] toffehoff: and the same with membership.....
[17:37] seav: ok
[17:38] toffehoff: We're all good with taking the WMF agreement as boilerplate for ours?
[17:38] toffehoff: .... and change them to our needs  ....
[17:39] karida: I think if it works for Wikimedia it can't be a bad document to start with
[17:39] seav: i'm ok with it
[17:39] seav: i'm biased of course 
[17:39] toffehoff: At least you're not upset with us taking the WMF as boilerplate ... 
[17:40] seav: maybe the WMF would be
[17:40] seav: but i'm not WMF
[17:40] seav:                          
[17:41] toffehoff: Let me work on the draft agreement.
[17:41] toffehoff: Is anyone of you both interested in setting up the draft procedure how to become a chapter?
[17:42] karida: What about stealing?  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide
[17:42] toffehoff: ... or go over the one that's already drawn up on the wiki....
[17:42] seav: is it a procedure really? or a list of requirements?
[17:43] karida: I think the requirements are enough at first
[17:43] seav: one minor problem is that the WMF procedures assume that the local chapter has not been founded yet
[17:43] karida: Then later someone can make a more beautiful guide as the WMF
[17:43] seav: with OSM, there are already existing orgs: Estonia, Spain, USA, Japan, Philippines
[17:44] toffehoff: Requirements and also where to apply ...
[17:44] toffehoff: that kind of stuff...
[17:44] karida: Well, for those already exisitng, this would be a special case anyway and doesn't need a guide anymore
[17:44] seav: it's possible that something about an existing org is unacceptable to OSMF
[17:45] karida: OSMF Japan actually thought the currently listed requirements are already defined, so we setup the local chapter with those requirements in mind
[17:46] seav: i see
[17:46] toffehoff: Before we go into that .....
[17:46] karida: Already existing LC can tell, if the requirements wouldn't work for them
[17:46] toffehoff: Let's first see what the requirements are.
[17:47] toffehoff: and then see if we may have a problem.
[17:47] seav: 1) non-profit
[17:47] seav: 2) membership-based org
[17:47] seav: 3) aims/objectives/mission-vision aligned with OSMF
[17:47] karida: Isn't it described as "Rules for Local Chapters"
[17:48] seav: also, do we allow overlapping chapters?
[17:48] seav: e.g., OSM Espana and OSM Catalonia?
[17:48] toffehoff: First reaction: I would say no.
[17:49] karida: We could say it must be a country
[17:49] seav: how about sub-countries (especially in federated states)?
[17:49] seav: like OSM Queensland
[17:49] toffehoff: e.g. the usa.
[17:49] seav: or OSM Quebec
[17:49] karida: You could then say they need to be local chapters of the local chapters 
[17:50] seav: ah, so an OSM Quebec could not be recognized until the Canadians get their act together?
[17:50] toffehoff: My feeling is not the restrict it to countries.
[17:50] toffehoff: Leave that open.
[17:50] karida: Well, I don't know if OSMF wants to deal with every tiny local chapter
[17:50] seav: but no overlaps?
[17:51] toffehoff: Overlaps would be a potential hell.
[17:51] karida: if you tke countries, then there shouldn't be legal overlaps
[17:51] seav: overlaps is a recognized problem in WMF
[17:51] toffehoff: But some countries are rather large....
[17:51] karida: in population? or map features?
[17:52] toffehoff: I had a discussion with someone of the USA
[17:52] karida: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Local_chapter_FAQ tells LC are countries
[17:53] seav: that's not quite exact
[17:53] seav: there is a Wikimedia New York City
[17:53] seav: that's the only local WMF chapter that isn't a country
[17:53] toffehoff: If a region is big enough of somehow outstanding of the rest....
[17:54] toffehoff: Again, I would not restrict it. It would be logical, and probably the most common thing to do.
[17:54] karida: I would restrict it to countries and then wait for others to come with really good arguments
[17:55] seav: karida, that's workable
[17:55] toffehoff: We can put it up for debate...
[17:56] toffehoff: seav: is overlapping seen as a problem in WMF?
[17:56] seav: yes, overlapping is a problem
[17:56] seav: 1) people may get confused who officially represents wikimedia in a territory
[17:57] toffehoff: That was also what I was thinking when I mentioned not to be in favor of overlap.....
[17:57] karida: One interesting question would be: what if someone wants to start another LC of the same country? Just because one LC isn't open enough or whatever reason. Is the first LC always the winner?
[17:57] seav: for WMF, yes
[17:58] seav: first-come first-served
[17:58] seav: if the LC is open enough for OSMF, then it's open enough
[17:58] seav: no need for another LC
[17:58] toffehoff: That can of course change during time....
[17:59] toffehoff: Would a yearly renewal (automaticly) of the agreement be an option?
[17:59] karida: Can a LC lose it's status as official LC? Will there be a yearly review for example?
[17:59] toffehoff: If it doesn't meet the requirements anymore.
[18:00] toffehoff: There should be a clause in the agreement how to end the agreement.
[18:01] seav: i think automatic renewal is the norm
[18:01] seav: with exit clauses
[18:01] toffehoff: Something like that.
[18:02] toffehoff: So if there would be someone else wanting to start an LC in the same country there would be a way to handle it.
[18:02] seav: seque: one problem: local-chapters is very quiet
[18:03] seav: nobody really reacted to my email
[18:03] seav: s/seque/segue/
[18:03] toffehoff: I noticed that too.
[18:04] toffehoff: Maybe someone will react when we have some draft agreement
[18:05] seav: hopefully
[18:05] seav: so going back to the requirements...
[18:05] toffehoff: That looks more final....
[18:05] seav: non-profit, membership-based, aligned with OSMF?
[18:05] seav: agree?
[18:05] seav: other additions?
[18:06] karida: In the "Rules" on the wiki page there is also
[18:06] karida: - have at least 20 members as "should have"
[18:06] karida: Do you want to have "should have" requirements?
[18:07] seav: nice to have, maybe
[18:07] toffehoff: that actually is intended as "have a reasonable amount of members".
[18:07] seav:        http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guidelines_for_future_chapters    
[18:08] seav:        http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters    
[18:08] karida: And: "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License;" ... so we can "steal" 
[18:08] seav: "The chapter must involve contributors to the Wikimedia projects." ---- > "The chapter must involve contributors to OpenStreetMap"?
[18:09] karida: Both are actually requirements for OSMF Japan for example
[18:09] karida: for their members
[18:09] seav: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." ---> we discussed this the last meeting, right? 
[18:09] toffehoff: seav: yes
[18:10] seav: karida, i disagree about requiring LC members to also be OSM contributors
[18:10] seav: there *should* be contributors in the LC
[18:10] seav: but not all members should be contributors
[18:11] karida: Well, it also depends on how you define "contributor"
[18:11] toffehoff: It should represent the community.
[18:11] seav: contributor = has an OSM account
[18:11] seav: (whether or not that account has edits)
[18:11] seav: i am thinking of LC members that can just be plain downstream OSM data users
[18:11] karida: That's a good definition and actually very easy to achieve
[18:12] seav: they don't have an account but they have a stake in OSM
[18:12] toffehoff: Do members have to be individuals or can also organisations become member of an LC?
[18:13] seav: i'm not sure about orgs being members
[18:13] karida: In Japan there is also corporate membership possible
[18:13] karida: And FOSSGIS allows this as well
[18:13] seav: i guess the LC can decide for itself
[18:13] seav: "The chapter is geographically based/anchored in a legal jurisdiction." --> we can adopt this too
[18:13] toffehoff: OK, but does the corporation also need to have an OSM account?
[18:14] seav: "The mission of the organisation must be in line with the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation." --> "The mission of the organisation must be in line with the mission of the OpenStreetMap Foundation."
[18:14] seav: as i said, i don't agree with requiring having an OSM account to be an LC member
[18:15] karida: Well, I think it should be up to the LC anyway to decide that.
[18:15] seav: hmmm, does OSMF require its members to have OSM accounts?
[18:16] toffehoff: To my knowledge: no.
[18:17] seav: ok
[18:17] seav: then i guess the we leave it up to the LC as well
[18:17] seav: so the requirement is that the LC should represent the local community or at least involve OSM contributors
[18:18] seav: right?
[18:18] toffehoff: The first.
[18:18] karida: Does a local chapter represent the local community?
[18:19] toffehoff: it should....
[18:19] karida: I thought it supports the local community for example
[18:19] seav: well here's a question:
[18:20] seav: if OSMF wanted to ask what the Japanese OSM community thinks of something, does it ask the Japan LC or does it ask the OSM contributors in Japan?
[18:20] karida: It asks talk-ja
[18:20] seav: in wikimedia, there's a strong distinction between the community and the LC
[18:20] karida: The community is not the foundation IMO
[18:21] seav: the Japanese Wikipedia editors != Wikimedia Japan
[18:21] toffehoff: OK: the local chapter respresents the OSM project.
[18:21] toffehoff: ?
[18:22] seav: so the LC speaks for OSMF in the LC's territory?
[18:22] seav: for wikimedia, WMF only represents itself worldwide
[18:22] karida: They maybe represent the OSMF ... but the LC can be a legal entitiy for the community
[18:23] toffehoff: being a legal entity for the community ... isn't that the same a representing the community?
[18:24] toffehoff: If a newsagency in Japan would like to write about OSM. Who do they go to?
[18:25] karida: Isnt' the first sentence on the LC wiki page good: "Local Chapters are proposed not-for-profit legal entities to be established within different territories around the world which can act as official local representatives of the Foundation when dealing with local government, business and media."
[18:25] seav: I think the LC
[18:25] seav: key phrase: "can act"
[18:26] seav: it's not the same as "is"
[18:26] karida: seav: exactly
[18:26] toffehoff: meaning?
[18:27] karida: there is no exclusive right of the LC to be the representative
[18:27] karida: or legal entity
[18:28] seav: the newsagency could also go to OSMF directly
[18:28] seav: and the OSMF can redirect to the LC if it so chooses
[18:28] karida: or ask a mapper community
[18:29] seav: i guess the point is that the LC supports the community
[18:29] karida: So LC are more "helper organisations"
[18:29] seav: and not the community supporting the LC
[18:29] toffehoff: ok
[18:30] • toffehoff looking at the time.
[18:30] karida: What says the board?
[18:30] toffehoff: About what?
[18:31] karida: Maybe good to hrear their opinions as well
[18:31] karida: About requirements
[18:31] toffehoff: Sure, but they've asked us to come up with a proposal.
[18:31] seav: ah i see
[18:31] karida: Or you prefer to make some draft and then let them submit +1 messages
[18:31] seav: I guess I can cobble a wiki page stealing points from WMF
[18:32] seav:                          
[18:32] toffehoff: Something like that.
[18:32] seav: and just mark those requirements that are up for debate
[18:32] toffehoff: Was also going to do something like that for the agreement.
[18:32] toffehoff: Why not have everything up for debate?
[18:33] toffehoff: Like: this is what we came up with ....
[18:33] seav: ok
[18:35] toffehoff: seav: can you make such a wiki-page for the requirements?
[18:35] seav: ok i will
[18:36] seav: it's holy week and we have no work on thursday and friday... i can do it then
[18:36] toffehoff: Thanks.
[18:37] toffehoff: Somewhere as a subpage of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Local_chapter
[18:38] seav: ok
[18:38] seav: wrap-up?
[18:38] toffehoff: lets' do.
[18:38] toffehoff: seav: you're going to set up the requirements page.
[18:38] toffehoff: I'm going to do the same for the agreement.
[18:39] seav: ok
[18:39] toffehoff: Next week or in two weeks?
[18:39] seav: by next week
[18:39] toffehoff: ok
[18:39] karida: So I will then take a look and give comments
[18:39] karida: Thanks!
[18:39] toffehoff: Next meeting also next week then?
[18:40] karida: Well, if there is something to discuss then ... just send some reminder on the list.
[18:41] toffehoff: OK. will do.
[18:41] toffehoff: Thanks you both!@
[18:42] seav: great!