Working Group Minutes/SWG 2011-07-08

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Attendance

IRC Name Present Apologies
apmon Kai Krueger y
chillly Chris Hill Guest
Eugene Eugene Usvitsky y
FakeSteveC Fake SteveC Guest
Firefishy Grant Slater y
Gnonthgol Knut Karevoll Guest
iandees Ian Dees Guest
jetthe Jonas Tull Guest
Komzpa Darafei Praliaskouski Guest
rasher Jonas Häggqvist Guest
RichardF Richard Fairhurst y
Socks Stephen Gower Guest
samlarsen Sam Larsen y
stevenfeldman Steven Feldman y
toffehoff Henk Hoff y
TomH Tom Hughes y
wonderchook Kate Chapman y

Minutes

1 July 2011 Minutes approved

Agenda

  • Discussion about community feedback / decisions
  • Articles of Association
  • List etiquette
  • Front page

Articles of Association

Discussion about community feedback / decisions

Actions

  • None

Next weeks agenda

  • Discussion about community feedback / decisions
  • Articles of Association
  • List etiquette
  • Front page

Next meeting

  • Informal Discussion at SoTM-EU
  • Next meeting 22nd July 15.00 UTC

IRC Log

[16:04] <stevenfeldman> Hi, am I too early?
[16:04] <wonderchook> stevenfeldman: I don't think so
[16:04] <wonderchook> the meeting was supposed to start 4 minutes ago, right?
[16:04] <stevenfeldman> wonderchook: I love the idea of a difference island :) Is that making a difference island?
[16:04] <toffehoff> Thought so as well.
[16:05] <stevenfeldman> ok I am lurking till we kick off
[16:05] <toffehoff> Waiting for Mikel...
[16:06] * Eugene has joined #osm-strategic
[16:06] <wonderchook> stevenfeldman: ha really I should have said "Java"
[16:06] <wonderchook> and learn to type
[16:06] <wonderchook> though in July I will be on a different island every meeting
[16:06] <Eugene> Hello everyone! Sorry for being a bit late.
[16:07] <RichardF> hellooooooooooooooo
[16:07] <stevenfeldman> wonderchook: does that mean a coffee island or an open source code island?
[16:07] <apmon> Hi
[16:07] * chillly has joined #osm-strategic
[16:07] <wonderchook> stevenfeldman: or the island where a lot of coffee comes from;)
[16:08] <toffehoff> Can someone see if Mikel is online?
[16:08] <wonderchook> toffehoff: he is not
[16:09] <wonderchook> I just had a meeting with him that ended 1 hour ago, he got kicked out of the coffee shop he was in due to Shabbat
[16:09] <toffehoff> Shall we wait for him or kick off w/o him.
[16:09] * Komzpa has joined #osm-strategic
[16:09] <wonderchook> I think we should kick it off w/o him
[16:09] * rasher has joined #osm-strategic
[16:10] <toffehoff> Look like we have a lot of visitors.
[16:10] <toffehoff> Can everyone identify themselves, before we start....
[16:10] <toffehoff> And is someone willing to make today's notes....
[16:11] <TomH> hi
[16:11] * maning has joined #osm-strategic
[16:11] <Firefishy> (I've invited people from #osm and #osm-dev, the more the merrier)
[16:11] <stevenfeldman> hi
[16:11] <stevenfeldman> firefishy: certainly seems like more, we'll find out whether that makes merrier
[16:12] <toffehoff> No problem with more people, but can they all identify themselves, so we know how is online?
[16:12] <chillly> hi, what do you want to know?
[16:12] <maning> maning from ph
[16:12] * Looking up Komzpa user info...
[16:13] <apmon> We have a policy of identifying real names to go with the nick names
[16:13] * Looking up rasher user info...
[16:13] <Komzpa> miau. Komяpa, Darafei Praliaskouski, Belarus
[16:13] <chillly> k, I'm Chris Hill, from UK - here out of interest
[16:13] * Fake has joined #osm-strategic
[16:13] * Looking up Fake user info...
[16:13] <rasher> I'm rasher, rasher.dk, Jonas Häggqvist, Denmark
[16:14] <apmon> Those are then included in the minutes ( e.g. http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-07-01 )
[16:14] * Fake is now known as FakeSteveC
[16:14] <FakeSteveC> Hi, I'm Fake SteveC from London. No, Colorado. No, Seattle. I forget.
[16:14] * Gnonthgol has joined #osm-strategic
[16:14] <Firefishy> FakeSteveC: not australia or was the austria?
[16:14] * Looking up Gnonthgol user info...
[16:14] <FakeSteveC> yeah I'm flying to Australia to win the guys over
[16:15] <apmon> Please, can we keep this serious?
[16:15] <Firefishy> apmon: no fun. spoil sport. OSM is /meant/ to be fun :)
[16:16] <toffehoff> Hello Gnonthgol, can you give you real name?
[16:16] * Looking up Gnonthgol user info...
[16:16] <wonderchook> unless someone can send me a beer through chat this is not counting as fun
[16:16] * Socks has joined #osm-strategic
[16:16] * Retrieving #osm-strategic modes...
[16:17] <toffehoff> Hello Socks, welcome. Can you give us you name?
[16:17] * apmon demands some new servers to make sure Firefishy has his fun...
[16:17] <Gnonthgol> toffehoff: Knut Karevoll, but people know me as Gnonthgol
[16:17] <toffehoff> In the mean time, anyone objections to last weeks minutes?
[16:17] <stevenfeldman> nope
[16:17] <apmon> seem fine to me
[16:17] <toffehoff> Thanks Knut.
[16:18] * FakeSteveC disappears in a puff of seriousness
[16:18] * FakeSteveC has quit IRC
[16:18] <wonderchook> minutes also fine with me
[16:18] <toffehoff> When no objections I think we can accept them .....
[16:18] <toffehoff> Who is going to minute today>
[16:18] <toffehoff> ?
[16:18] <Socks> toffehoff: Stephen Gower. OSM username Socks :-) 
[16:18] <toffehoff> Thanks to Chrisfl_ for making last weeks minutes.
[16:19] <toffehoff> Hello Stephen.
[16:19] <toffehoff> Anyone ? (today's minutes...)
[16:20] <Firefishy> Last week's discussion for those that missed the link: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-07-01
[16:21] <toffehoff> Anyone ?
[16:21] * Firefishy votes for toffehoff
[16:21] <toffehoff> Declines.
[16:21] <toffehoff> Have too much other OSM stuff on my plate..
[16:22] <toffehoff> Interesting to see this many people, but no one voluteering to compile the minutes...
[16:23] <stevenfeldman> i've dome a good stint and am overloaded atm
[16:23] <Firefishy> I'll do it. Although my summary might suck.
[16:23] * wonderchook has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection�)
[16:24] <toffehoff> We'll help you with that :-)
[16:24] <toffehoff> Thanks Grant.
[16:24] * jetthe has joined #osm-strategic
[16:24] * wonderchook has joined #osm-strategic
[16:24] <toffehoff> Hello jetthe, can you give us you real name?
[16:24] <jetthe> Hi, Jonas Tull (OSM uname "jetthe")
[16:24] <wonderchook> I think my internet connection speaks for itself, for me doing minutes
[16:25] <wonderchook> if someone else will log I'll do the wiki part
[16:25] <toffehoff> Our main subject for today is probably the discussion / feedback of community.
[16:25] <Firefishy> Shuttle launch in 2mins.
[16:25] <apmon> Firefishy: Short summery: Endless discussions, see log below.... ;-)
[16:25] <RichardF> apmon: Please, can we keep this serious? ;)
[16:25] <apmon> We can
[16:25] <apmon> So what is on the agenda
[16:26] <toffehoff> where we ended last week :-)
[16:26] <toffehoff> Community involvement with Foundation decisions / community decisions.
[16:26] <apmon> So those are: Discussion about community feedback / decisions
[16:26] <apmon> Articles of Association
[16:26] <apmon> List etiquette
[16:26] <apmon> Front page
[16:27] <toffehoff> About AoA, it's ongoing. Nothing interesting to report.
[16:27] <apmon> I would suggest we first deal with list etiquette and AoA, as those are presumably shorter
[16:27] <toffehoff> Still planning on having a discussion durint SotM EU
[16:27] <wonderchook> sounds good apmon
[16:27] <toffehoff> List etiquette:
[16:28] <toffehoff> Richard announced the moderation to talk@
[16:28] <apmon> So far there hasn't been any reaction
[16:28] <apmon> Which is presumably a very good thing
[16:28] <toffehoff> Just one positive...
[16:29] <toffehoff> I think we can leave this for the moment.
[16:29] <apmon> +1
[16:29] <stevenfeldman> +2
[16:29] <toffehoff> Leaves community feedback / decisions and Front page.
[16:30] <toffehoff> Any preferences
[16:30] <toffehoff> ?
[16:30] <apmon> Are there concrete things to discuss / updates in either?
[16:30] <toffehoff> ... and lift of the last trip of space shuttle.
[16:30] <stevenfeldman> community feedback discussion was active last week why not continue
[16:30] <toffehoff> K
[16:31] <apmon> A short summery for the new comers:
[16:32] <apmon> The idea is to figure out ways to strengthen the tie between OSMF and the wider community
[16:32] <apmon> to ensure that decisions are made in favour of the community and not against it
[16:32] <apmon> for this OSMF needs to have better ways of "asking the community"
[16:33] <apmon> At the same time it is important for OSMF not not become inoperable or prevent the do-ocracy spirit through too much "elections" where they are not appropriate
[16:34] * iandees has joined #osm-strategic
[16:34] <apmon> So the question is: What measures are appropriate for which times and how are those determined
[16:34] <toffehoff> Hi Ian.
[16:34] <apmon> People agree with the summery?
[16:35] <iandees> morning toffehoff
[16:35] <wonderchook> yes, I agree
[16:35] <toffehoff> Last week we also discussed whether decision needed to be in favour of the community or in favour of the project.
[16:35] * maning has quit IRC (Quit: maning�)
[16:36] <wonderchook> true, so where in those bullets should we start
[16:36] <toffehoff> The issue may also lay in the expectations of the community  ..... which may be too high.
[16:36] <wonderchook> well, I think some of it is the whole inherent issue with compromise. everyone has to give some
[16:37] <RichardF> and it's worth noting that the basic premise of the discussion may not be universally accepted
[16:37] <wonderchook> and with many people with many different opinions that is difficult
[16:38] <wonderchook> RichardF: the basic premise of which part of the discussion?
[16:38] <wonderchook> that the community needs to be considered more?
[16:39] <stevenfeldman> wonderchook: +1
[16:39] <RichardF> wonderchook: that there is a need to change how things are done so that "decisions are made in favour of the community and not against it"
[16:40] <wonderchook> ah okay, I agree with that statement then
[16:40] <apmon> Clearly there will always be many different opinions in such a large and diverse community (some of which may be conflicting). Which is why it is important to have mechanisms to ensure that the decisions reflect most people
[16:41] <toffehoff> .... or is the best for the project?
[16:41] <RichardF> apmon: disagree
[16:41] <RichardF> apmon: I believe decisions should be made for the future good of the project, not based on opinion polling of the current majority
[16:42] <toffehoff> If most people want to sell the data, should we be doing that?
[16:42] <RichardF> precisely
[16:43] <wonderchook> so this really more about continuity?
[16:44] <wonderchook> just meaning if hte majority changes its mind briefly 
[16:44] <toffehoff> No: is the OSMF's primairy objective the community of the project ?
[16:44] <toffehoff> of = or
[16:44] <apmon> We have always said that the community is the most valuable thing of the project, the thing that nearly defines it.
[16:44] <RichardF> toffehoff: OSMF has defined objectives: "dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free geospatial data and to providing geospatial data for anyone to use and share"
[16:45] <RichardF> that does not always mean following what the community wants
[16:45] <RichardF> we're not a charity AIUI more for convenience than out of principle, but charities _always_ follow their charitable aims, not merely what their members want
[16:45] <toffehoff> apmon: the most valuable thing of the project (not the community)
[16:45] <RichardF> parallel example - in the area I work in, the Inland Waterways Association has similar aims to OSMF's: to support the development and preservation of the waterways. It is _not_ there just to do what its members want.
[16:46] <RichardF> that can cause conflict, but it's as it should be.
[16:47] <apmon> RichardF: So who defines what is in the best interest of the project then?
[16:47] <RichardF> apmon: the far-sighted people that OSMF members elect onto the board, one would hope
[16:47] <RichardF> and, in turn, they may choose to take advice from others
[16:48] <toffehoff> The project is not some bubble in space. There are also other influences.
[16:48] <stevenfeldman> but not be forced to listen to the noisiest of the others
[16:48] <RichardF> stevenfeldman: yes, exactly
[16:49] <toffehoff> Mappers, users of data, competitors ...
[16:49] <toffehoff> When only looking at the mappers, we miss other actors ....
[16:50] * samlarsen1 has joined #osm-strategic
[16:50] <toffehoff> Hi sam.
[16:51] <samlarsen1> hi - am i late again?
[16:51] <apmon> yes
[16:51] <samlarsen1> :(
[16:51] <stevenfeldman> toffehoff: particularly the users who could become the next generation of contributors
[16:52] <toffehoff> for instance...
[16:52] <RichardF> yes. if you ask your existing users what you want, they (generally) don't tell you about the change you need. that's because they're already happy, which is why they're already users.
[16:52] <RichardF> that's why you need far-sighted people who are prepared to make controversial decisions against the will of the current majority - because it's in the long-term interest of OSM
[16:53] <RichardF> even if that does involve Steve being rude to me about Potlatch, etc. etc. etc.
[16:53] <toffehoff> I think need to define how the OSMF should consult the community (who that is) in the process of making decisions.
[16:54] <toffehoff> B/c we look at what's happing on talk@, irc, and other channels.
[16:55] <toffehoff> The community does not communicate via one channel. 
[16:55] <iandees> careful when you say "the community" though ... which community do you mean? active editors? active editors that are OSMF members? consumers of the data?
[16:55] <apmon> iandees: That is part of the process. To decide who is the community
[16:56] <toffehoff> iandees: we haven't touched that subject yet :-) 
[16:56] <wonderchook> well and there are communities that don't even use those channels
[16:56] <wonderchook> regionally
[16:56] <toffehoff> There you are...
[16:56] <iandees> well maybe before you talk about communicating with the community you should decide which communities you're thinking about :)
[16:57] <toffehoff> But how decides which community to consult?
[16:57] <apmon> The mappers are definitely part of the community, and we don't even know how to communicate with them 
[16:57] <wonderchook> and is there a responsibility to track them down? or just decide there are a couple channels
[16:58] <wonderchook> exactly apmon
[16:58] <RichardF> though, as ever, bear in mind that there are people who "just want to map" without having to become part of any community
[16:59] <apmon> Yes, no one should be forced to have a (political) opinion
[16:59] <wonderchook> true, but we probably shouldn't screw them over if the community wants something
[16:59] <apmon> but everyone (within reason) should have the right.
[16:59] <wonderchook> also there are entire countries that don't participate in the larger community
[17:00] <wonderchook> becuase of language usually I think
[17:01] <stevenfeldman> time :)
[17:01] <wonderchook> well that is another reason
[17:01] <toffehoff> It's at the hour and we only raised more questions .... :-)
[17:01] <iandees> successful meeting!
[17:02] <toffehoff> Can we draw any conclusion?
[17:03] <apmon> Well, the first thing we would need to figure out, if there is enough support for that there is a need to improve things on this front
[17:04] <apmon> If there is no support for that and everyone would just rather keep it as it is and not bother with asking the community, then there is not much point in discussing it further
[17:04] <toffehoff> Can we define the problem we would like to resolve?
[17:05] <toffehoff> a clear problem.... 
[17:05] <apmon> Should there be formal means for the wider community to influence (some) decisions.
[17:05] <toffehoff> If we cannot agree on the problem, we're never going to get a solution...
[17:06] * Firefishy ends loggin in 1 min.
[17:06] <toffehoff> Or should other people (not being members of the Foundation) have a say in decisions within the Foundation?
[17:07] <toffehoff> Is that our question?
[17:07] <wonderchook> well, I think that is 1 question to discuss and answer
[17:07] <wonderchook> be a good starting point
[17:07] <apmon> "decisions within the Foundation that effect the entire project"
[17:08] <wonderchook> +1 apmon
[17:08] <toffehoff> Or is the problem that the community does not have a process how they reach a decision.
[17:08] <toffehoff> Not every decision within the project is a decision of the Foundation.
[17:09] <apmon> imho this is only about decisions made by the foundation (about the project)
[17:09] <stevenfeldman> got to go now, bye all
[17:09] <toffehoff> Bye Steven!
[17:09] * stevenfeldman has left #osm-strategic
[17:10] <apmon> So decisions not made by the foundation are outside the scope
[17:10] * Firefishy time?
[17:11] <apmon> Yes, lets end it here for the time
[17:11] <toffehoff> Think it's time.