CWG meeting 2012-09-10

Commmunication Working Group meeting on Monday 10th Sept 2012


  • License change todos
  • Google+ short URL


  • Harry Wood
  • Richard W
  • JonathanB
  • Richard F
  • Firefishy

IRC log

21:01:27 - harry-wood: CWG time
21:01:35 - rweait: Hello.
21:01:40 - JonathanB: Is that anything like Hammer Time?
21:01:55 - harry-wood: Yep. Picture me saying it just that way
21:01:56 - rweait: Thank you for that "ear worm".
21:02:16 - rweait: Daa daa da daaaa. da daaad, da daaaaa. Can't touch this.
21:02:37 - RichardF: our folk band was going to record an album which began with the sound of an aeroplane landing and the voice-over "Ladies and gentleman, please set your watches to British Jazz Time."
21:02:37 - JonathanB: Too legit to quit
21:02:59 - harry-wood: I had show a bunch of MC Hammer videos to my girlfriend to explain why her trousers were funny to me
21:03:16 - harry-wood: (wasn't that big in Brazil apparently)
21:03:22 - JonathanB: Is she still your girlfriend?
21:03:28 - harry-wood: hehe
21:04:07 - rweait: So, what's new? Anything to announce or anything? :-)
21:04:14 - JonathanB: OK -- I've been away for a while. Sorry folks, but summer holiday just went a bit mental. School has restarted, so calm is restored in the Bennett house.
21:04:17 - RichardF: so the agenda for this evening is, I presume, the small matter of this licence change thing?
21:05:05 - harry-wood1: wooh. lost connection for a sec there
21:05:50 - JonathanB: What do we know from board and/or MT meetings?
21:05:57 - RichardF: JonathanB: apparently there's a new one.
21:06:01 - RichardF: Harry, do you have the link to your super to-do licence change list?
21:06:14 - harry-wood1:
21:06:21 - RichardF: w00t
21:06:33 - rweait: So is setting a date like, "on 13 October 2012, the first ODbL planet will be published" a good way to go?
21:06:51 - RichardF: gah, hackpad down.
21:07:02 - harry-wood1: Might be good to have a date to aim for
21:07:16 - RichardF: rweait: not really within CWG scope I think. I think our job is to make sure that everything is ready to go when the switch is made.
21:07:50 - JonathanB: Hackpad a GoDaddy victim?
21:07:54 - RichardF: ah, working now.
21:08:20 - Firefishy entered the room.
21:08:51 - rweait: RichardF: but that date is going to be an important part of the message we have to deliver. Being clear about the date, in advance, seems ++good.
21:09:17 - harry-wood2: Sorry
21:09:22 - RichardF: they're multiplying!
21:09:22 harry-wood2 moves closer to the wifi
21:09:32 - rweait: besides, somebody has to set the date. if the blockers other than comms, are done, then it's on us. :-)
21:09:45 - RichardF: so let's clear the blockers :)
21:09:51 - rweait: "How much noticeis enough notice?"
21:10:10 - RichardF: we were meant to be changing licence in April so we've had five months' notice ;)
21:10:15 - harry-wood2: RichardF: you wrote this one right?
21:10:17 - rweait: afaics, the DWG and LWG blockers are clear.
21:10:30 - harry-wood2: we weren't sure exactly which companies that was meant to go to
21:10:41 - RichardF: ok, let's work them out then.
21:10:46 - harry-wood2: Try to find/reach lots of them, or just the usual suspects?
21:11:02 - RichardF: well, we can do a list, and then we can ask the community to do the rest.
21:11:24 - RichardF: so, to start with: MapQuest, Cloudmade, MapBox, Geofabrik, Skobbler.
21:11:39 - rweait: Isn't it on them to find us and sign up for a list? We don't want to be spammers.
21:12:01 - RichardF: (ffs, hackpad beyond broken)
21:12:12 - RichardF: rweait: one mail telling people what's happening is hardly spam :)
21:12:19 harry-wood2 is editing the hackpad ...hopefully
21:13:01 - harry-wood2: Plus we've written the email now. Might as well do something with it
21:13:16 - harry-wood2: but I think we could also forward it to one of the mailing lists to say "we just sent this"
21:13:17 - RichardF: (it keeps trying to connect to and failing. and whining about certificates. come back Google, all is forgiven)
21:13:57 - harry-wood2: You trying to use your iPad for it? :-)
21:14:02 - RichardF: nope, just the Mac
21:15:00 - JonathanB: OK, given the brokenness, can we take a step back? This is an email to data consumers, telling them what they need to do as a result of the licence change, yes?
21:15:05 - RichardF: yep.
21:15:25 - harry-wood2: or "data distributing companies"
21:15:32 - harry-wood2: a smaller list than data consumers
21:15:36 - JonathanB: OK
21:16:01 - harry-wood2: I actually don't think it's terribly important, but we've got the email written. Might as well send it!
21:16:20 - RichardF: it makes for a cleaner switch if they're aware, and also saves them getting bombarded with lots of "your attribution is wrong" mails from the ****-***s of this world.
21:16:35 - harry-wood2: yup
21:16:37 - JonathanB: OK, cool.
21:17:02 - harry-wood2: Any other companies who do a lot of taking data and pumping it out again?
21:17:09 - JonathanB: Do we have a similar message for people who merely embed OSM tiles within their site?
21:17:31 JonathanB really, really can't get into hackpad ATM
21:17:35 - harry-wood2: yes that's errm… on FAQ
21:17:45 - RichardF: interesting point. that should probably go via the blog, lists etc. because it's a much bigger audience, yes?
21:18:09 - harry-wood2:
21:18:29 - harry-wood2: I think the plan is to swap ^^^ this page in place of 'Legal_FAQ'
21:18:40 - RichardF: yeah, but again, we need to be slightly proactive about this rather than just relying on people to navigate the wiki ("You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike")
21:18:48 - JonathanB: +1
21:19:28 - RichardF: and a related issue: do OL and Leaflet have standard OSM attribution strings? if so, I guess we need to request they're changed too
21:20:25 - harry-wood: ...a draft of which is here:
21:20:47 - RichardF: yep. I think the /copyright page is all sorted now.
21:21:02 - harry-wood: But yes. Also including some of this on the blog / mailing list announcement would be good
21:21:13 - harry-wood: we dont have a draft for the announcement message yet
21:21:52 - RichardF: anyone want to take that on?
21:22:03 - RichardF: don't all shout at once :)
21:22:04 - rweait: what guidance do we offer on cached tiles, extracts, meta-data, etc. For folks like,, etc.
21:23:01 - rweait: I can draft something for the lists.
21:23:08 - RichardF: rweait: interesting question. I'm sort of assuming that Jochen, Pascal etc. will have a good understanding of the issues and be following the licence change closely, so we probably don't need to communicate so actively with them.
21:23:13 - RichardF: rweait: \o/
21:23:52 - rweait: So, here's the thing. kind of the first thing in the message will be " On __________ the license change will be complete."
21:23:55 - rweait: :-)
21:24:04 - rweait: So I'm back to my question.
21:24:16 - RichardF: well, in the e-mail wot I wrote, it starts with "OpenStreetMap will very shortly be changing its data licence from Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike to the Open Database Licence (ODbL). We are contacting you as a major distributor of OSM data to let you know how this affects you."
21:24:22 - rweait: Can we suggest to MT, or board that they adopt a date we suggest?
21:24:24 - RichardF: and finishes with "We will be in touch immediately before the licence change happens. Thanks for your continued support of OpenStreetMap."
21:24:57 - harry-wood: Well no, the draft I was thinking about would say "Ladies & gentleman, the license has just switched"
21:26:16 - RichardF: the view of the last board was "asap". I don't know what the view of the current board will be, of course. the other people whose view I would listen to are the sysadmins. Firefishy may have a view :)
21:26:48 - Firefishy: I think at the start of the next Planet dump run.
21:27:04 - RichardF: cool. any preference as to when that should be?
21:27:06 - Firefishy: "Normally" this is 1am Wednesday morning.
21:27:15 - rweait: to my mind, asap is "as soon as we can justify that amount of notice."
21:27:37 - Firefishy: But likely best to adjust a little to UK times.
21:27:47 - rweait: Firefishy, and then published about 36 hours later?
21:28:06 - RichardF: ok. so, starting from the first opportunity: is there any _CWG_ blocker why it can't happen this Wednesday?
21:28:14 - harry-wood1: pnorman was in a panic about what it would mean if we tried to switch suddenly without telling server running people the time to flush data through. But it's not a problem I think (and I think he decided too) because the license changes first, then the data consumers swap to a new diff location and change their credits
21:28:16 - Firefishy: rweait: But I would say the API + diffs would switch once planetdump has started
21:28:24 - JonathanB: RichardF: Getting stuff written in time?
21:28:45 - rweait: Firefishy, okay.
21:28:53 - RichardF: JonathanB: hence the question :) . I had a trawl through the wiki this morning and there's much less than I thought there would be.
21:28:57 - RichardF: (as in, much less to fix.)
21:29:00 - rweait: we're all set with xml license?
21:29:01 - JonathanB: Less than 48 hours to have all the materials ready :(
21:29:26 - Firefishy: rweait: It *famous last words* should be a quick change.
21:29:48 - RichardF: JonathanB: what are the materials? (that's not an arsy rhetorical question, it's a "what do we have to do?" question :) )
21:30:07 - rweait: mail to the lists, blog, ODG. That's me.
21:30:18 - Firefishy: I'm actually more worried about the re-organisation of
21:30:20 RichardF makes mental note to buy rweait a drink
21:30:29 - harry-wood1: The materials are all listed on the hackpad that none of you can see :-)
21:30:30 - harry-wood1:
21:30:30 - JonathanB: ..and we have lots of "I'm an X, what do I need to do?" type stuff?
21:31:06 - rweait: Are we happy to purge our tile cache Wednesday morning?
21:31:11 - JonathanB: RichardF: I think rweait is owed so many drinks, that the next time he sets foot in the UK, he'll spend the entire time in a stupor
21:31:23 - RichardF: JonathanB: ah, I was wondering if I could buy him one in Portland
21:31:24 - Firefishy: Thinking about it... how does 8am Wednesday (BST) sound?
21:31:33 - rweait: Nah, that's my natural state, JonathanB
21:32:13 - rweait: does the tile server have to load from odbl planet first?
21:32:24 - harry-wood1: Someone dies need to figure out details of the tile cache and what that means in terms of attribution
21:32:35 RichardF starts
21:32:48 - rweait: I think the attribution is simplified, per RichardF
21:33:08 - Firefishy: rweait: Tile server + cache purge isn't practical. Reload of the osm2psql db should be done, but chicken and egg problem.
21:33:09 - rweait: and the tiles can still be ccbysa.
21:33:42 - rweait: Firefishy, what's the best way to do it right? We'll want to eat our dogfood here.
21:33:57 - harry-wood1: when I chatted to Matt about this (a couple of months back) he said the tile server would need a reflush of its DB, for legal reasons
21:34:03 - rweait: Since we're advising other to the the right thing too.
21:34:27 - harry-wood1: but he said the tile cache could be left dangling, and purged at a later date
21:34:31 - rweait: So do we need a reduced tile server services announcement for next weeked?
21:35:00 - Firefishy: rweait: Ideal world, new disks + 1 week for reload + rebuild.
21:35:31 - rweait: that's reload rendering...
21:35:48 - Firefishy: Clearing out the low zoom stuff can likely be done soon... very few areas haven't been updated.
21:35:53 - RichardF: we're straying into LWG territory, I think
21:36:12 - harry-wood1: yes. We need LWG/OWG to fill in some details on the big hackpad
21:36:18 - harry-wood1: so that we know what to announce
21:36:19 - Firefishy: rweait: I can't really answer, need jburgess.
21:36:27 - rweait: okay. :-)
21:37:06 - RichardF: harry-wood1: you're not inflicting hackpad pain on more people I hope ;)
21:37:29 - harry-wood1: yeah. This orgnisation-wide. This hackpad is BIG I tell you
21:37:47 - harry-wood1: (maybe we could go public with a wiki page instead)
21:38:50 - harry-wood1: The hackpad filled out nicely with most tasks progressing well and some attention particularly from Mike Collinson. There's nothing on there which we need to keep under wraps now I think
21:39:06 - RichardF: +1 to wiki then.
21:39:22 - harry-wood1: OK. shall I whack it on the wiki right now so you can actually see it?
21:39:27 - RichardF: yes please :)
21:39:30 - rweait: please.
21:39:33 - harry-wood1: ok. give me a minute
21:39:53 rweait is about to head to Toronto OSM Mappy Hour. :-)
21:41:29 - RichardF: I've added two checklists at .
21:41:39 - RichardF: please add anything I've missed or let me know.
21:42:58 - rweait: looks good. Simple.
21:43:04 - RichardF: thanks!
21:43:32 - rweait: advise to mappers?
21:43:38 - rweait: or advice.
21:43:54 - RichardF: anything not in ?
21:43:56 - rweait: "map only what you observe on a foot survey." Or cycling.
21:43:56 - JonathanB: "Keep calm and carry on"
21:44:18 - JonathanB: rweait has a point
21:44:31 - harry-wood1: ok new TODO list location:
21:44:38 - JonathanB: Third party sources of data are highly unlikely to be ODBL compatible in the first instance.
21:45:08 - RichardF: rweait is of course right. I think it says something like that in 2a though.
21:45:12 - RichardF: "Better still, survey the data yourself!"
21:45:19 - rweait: I think it's off-topic for today, but perhaps we want to add a omnthly message to all of our channels that says, "don't copy from other sources."
21:45:44 - RichardF: yeah. the welcome message that P1 had didn't get carried through to P2, and I've been wondering about reintroducing it.
21:46:04 - rweait: +1
21:47:08 - harry-wood1: I wonder if Google Map Maker does that yet. Last time I checked there was an astounding lack of information about copyrights (and not breaching them)
21:47:08 - rweait: perhaps put that on the agenda for next week. "Nag notice for data hygiene."
21:47:21 - RichardF: rweait: yep.
21:47:35 - JonathanB: +1
21:47:39 - RichardF: harry-wood1: I think Google have proved with YouTube that they can pretty much infringe with impunity :(
21:48:04 - rweait: so back to our topic of the day...
21:48:43 - RichardF: ok, going through the communication-related topics on Harry's newly sparkly wikified todo.
21:48:49 - rweait: If I draft an email and send it to communication my-tonight, y'all can give it a thumbs up in your-morning.
21:48:50 - RichardF: 1 is DWG so not our business.
21:49:27 - harry-wood1: Yeah this is supposed to be a TODO list for all groups
21:49:34 - RichardF: indeed.
21:49:46 - harry-wood1: it has a comms bias …because there's a lot of comms todo :-)
21:49:49 - RichardF: I was just saying we should skip over it, not that it shouldn't be there :)
21:49:57 - RichardF: on 2: we need knowledgeable people to look over the "guidance to data consumers" page, and I need to send the data distributor e-mail out.
21:50:19 - RichardF: any other points to be done on 2?
21:50:43 - harry-wood1: "The required credit text advice is potentially confusing. Some further examples to illustrate the required credit text would be a good idea" <— that was me saying that
21:50:51 - harry-wood1: Not sure if the text should actually be clearer
21:51:01 - harry-wood1: or if it's necessarily phrased that way
21:51:27 - rweait: I'll add some screen shots and code samples.
21:51:31 - RichardF: WFM. too many examples make stuff wordy IMO. but YMMV. FTW. WTF. etc.
21:51:47 rweait likes pictures.
21:51:54 - harry-wood1: yeah I was thinking from the point of view of somebody embedding tiles on their web page. it does't spell it out
21:51:59 - RichardF: rweait: separate page maybe? ODbL/FAQ/Attribution_Examples
21:52:06 - rweait: Sure.
21:53:17 - RichardF: anything else from 2 we need to do?
21:53:39 - harry-wood1: nope
21:54:06 - harry-wood1: under the deployment section ….this is where I'm not sure if OWG are ready to do all those things
21:54:30 - rweait: Firefishy: ^^^
21:54:40 - harry-wood1: and where we could do with some advanced plan information so we know what to announce
21:54:45 Firefishy catching up on thread... was away for 10mins.
21:54:50 - rweait: :-)
21:55:53 - harry-wood1: So I think for now we just need to say… Someone (Firefishy?) get OWG to look at it and sprinkle some more information on there about what will actually happen.
21:56:48 - RichardF: yeah. seriously, it's not CWG's job to manage other WGs.
21:57:01 - harry-wood1: Mike Collinson added "New attribution on slippy map"
21:57:40 - harry-wood1: meaning front page? I think it's not needed, but there is a slippy map hidden away on the iframe embeddable export tab thingy
21:58:17 - RichardF: so have we identified all the comms work required then?
21:58:35 - harry-wood1: Do we need to email OpenLayers devs? (part of the "distributors" email list perhaps)
21:59:05 - RichardF: harry-wood1: I asked that earlier :) do OL and Leaflet have standard attribution strings that they need to change?
21:59:13 - Firefishy:
21:59:42 - harry-wood1: Firefishy: yeah that one
22:00:19 - rweait: RichardF: harry-wood1: they both have overrides. But yeah, sending them a note or patch would be idea.
22:00:26 - rweait: ideal.
22:00:38 - RichardF: can I leave that to you or Harry? I know basically nothing about either library.
22:00:56 - rweait: I thought they both used P2 under the hood?
22:01:01 RichardF laughs
22:01:02 - rweait: I'll give that a go.
22:01:04 - RichardF: thanks.
22:01:34 - harry-wood1: Of course there's a question of timing there though too, which comes back to the OWG TODO list
22:01:46 - rweait: I've got to dash to Mappy Hour. no rest for the wicked, etc.
22:01:50 - RichardF: rweait: enjoy!
22:02:05 - RichardF: harry-wood1: send a heads-up now, with a "we'll tell you when to flick the switch" sentence.
22:02:05 - rweait: Sorry, were we just about to set a date? I can wait fo r that.
22:02:11 - RichardF: NO rweait :)
22:02:19 - rweait: :(
22:02:26 - harry-wood1: yes. head-up now makes sense
22:02:38 - RichardF: rweait: seriously, if you want to be the one who sets the date, you needed to have stopped making those "Not going to happen" comments about two months ago :p
22:02:40 - Firefishy: Timings: I will re-organise tomorrow, keeping replication links in place (or via invisible links)
22:02:41 - rweait: HOw about Wed 12th, with wed 19th as a rain date?
22:03:03 - RichardF: rweait: works for me but <broken_record>not CWG's competence</broken_record>
22:03:31 - rweait: "Communication is, but I'm just not saying it clearly."
22:03:40 - rweait: Okay.
22:03:44 - rweait: I'm out of here. :-)
22:03:48 - Firefishy: Wednesday 8am, but I need to confirm with LWG. With code finalised before or around then :)
22:03:57 - RichardF: cool.
22:05:33 - harry-wood1: If board are choosing the date, then the message from CWG is… we've got lots to do, but no big reasons to delay from us
22:05:44 - RichardF: excellent. thanks.
22:05:50 - RichardF: I shall tell the board.
22:06:38 - RichardF: anything else for this evening?
22:07:20 - harry-wood1: nope. Everyone feel free to tweak and improve the TODO list
22:07:41 - harry-wood1: which is now here:
22:07:50 - JonathanB: One thing
22:08:03 - JonathanB: Very minor
22:08:17 - JonathanB: Google+ now does shortcut URLs
22:08:37 - JonathanB: Do we want or +openstreetmap ?
22:08:54 - harry-wood1: might as well
22:08:59 - JonathanB: It's an either or
22:09:18 - harry-wood1: oh…. osm if it's free
22:09:25 - harry-wood1: It's supposed to be a short URL afterall
22:10:04 - JonathanB: Everyone else gone, or just not GAF?
22:10:18 - RichardF: the latter I'm afraid :)
22:10:21 - Firefishy: I am going to send a email to heanet + .de planet mirrors asking them to turn on rsync Hardlink support (if not already turned on)... that way they'll save mega on the moves.
22:10:36 - RichardF: (as per earlier conversation elsewhere about not sweating the details ;) )
22:10:58 - JonathanB: "You can only have one custom URL. Once you claim it, you can't change or transfer it.
22:10:58 - JonathanB: Are you sure you want to claim
22:10:58 - JonathanB:
22:10:58 - JonathanB: as the custom URL for your Google+ page?"
22:11:28 - harry-wood1: oh I see. it's like on facebook where you choose your URL
22:11:34 - harry-wood1: sorry misunderstood what you meant
22:11:51 - harry-wood1: maybe openstreetmap is better. ooh errr.
22:12:01 - JonathanB: Yeah, I'm going to go for the long form.
22:12:07 - harry-wood1: yeah
22:12:40 - JonathanB: Done. They have to review the request, but can't imagine it'll be a problem
22:12:49 - harry-wood1: Nothing else for today from me
22:13:46 - RichardF: cool. I'll get to sending the mail out then.
22:14:06 - harry-wood1: OK chat to you all soon
22:14:16 - RichardF: thanks for turning up all :)