CWG meeting 2013-02-04

Meeting of Communication Working Group on Monday 4th February 2013


  • Tweeting
    • idea of non news 'did you know?' tweets
    • following
  • CWG staffing - Getting translators to regard themselves as CWGers
  • Comms policy

IRC log:

21:01 harry-wood: hello
21:02 JonathanB: Evening
21:02 harry-wood: JonathanB rweait hello
21:03 harry-wood: hmm waiting for rweait. How are you doing JonathanB?
21:04 JonathanB: harry-wood: Just out of a week and half of a bug going round the house, but it's finally gone.
21:04 JonathanB: All three kids in childcare tomorrow for the first time in two weeks.
21:05 harry-wood: hehe. Eww. Yeah my boss (also called Jonathan) comes to work with strange child induced diseases sometimes
21:05 harry-wood: He had a cold for about a month
21:05 JonathanB: ...hence why I've done nothing at all CWGish since we last spoke
21:06 harry-wood: I didn't do much. Been a bit preoccupied with the London Hack Weekend
21:06 harry-wood: which went very well
21:06 harry-wood: but I'm knackered now
21:06 JonathanB: Well, hack weekends and the like are where most of OSM's real work gets done, not in overly political wrangling :)
21:07 harry-wood: ooh. just noticing there's a bot in the room
21:07 JonathanB: Hi, strategic-meetbot !
21:08 harry-wood: strategic meetbot. There's was a discussion about SWG meetings and IRC logging them I think. So I guess that's what that is.
21:08 harry-wood: maybe we're confusing things by using this chatroom
21:08 harry-wood: ah well
21:08 JonathanB: Hell, if we can get access to the logs it might be a help
21:09 : wonderchook [~wondercho@] entered the room.
21:09 harry-wood: hello wonderchook!
21:09 wonderchook: hi all, due to weird jetlag I happened to be up!
21:09 JonathanB: Well, hello newcomer.
21:09 JonathanB: Glad you could join us
21:09 harry-wood: yeah that's great
21:09 harry-wood: We didn't get started
21:09 harry-wood: not sure if rweait is... with us
21:10 rweait: Hello.
21:10 harry-wood: Hello!
21:10 : Blackadder_ [] entered the room.
21:10 harry-wood: So last time we had some topics and actions:
21:11 harry-wood: One of my actions was to get Kate onto the emails. Seems to have worked :-)
21:11 harry-wood: My other action was start a policy doc.
21:11 harry-wood:
21:11 harry-wood: needs a bit of work
21:11 harry-wood: I just worked on this action.... 15 minutes ago
21:13 harry-wood: So clearly I need to extend this to describe what kind of things cause a communication to be questionable
21:14 JonathanB: * Mentioning (or even criticising) "competitors"
21:14 wonderchook: you mean the hard part?=D
21:14 harry-wood: heh! yes
21:14 harry-wood: no actually the hard part is..
21:14 harry-wood: ...what is the punishment for failing to judge things well
21:14 wonderchook: does that mean no more "look at how much better OSM is in North Korea than Google MapMaker"?
21:15 wonderchook: ah yeah punishment is a difficult one
21:15 harry-wood: Well so another thing I need to document I suppose is... the different channels... some of which are certainly more official than others
21:15 : Blackadder left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 480 seconds).
21:15 : Blackadder_ is now known as Blackadder
21:16 harry-wood: so for example my own tweets/blogs I would happily lay into google map maker
21:16 harry-wood: (although even then I like to think I use some good judgement in representing OSM)
21:16 wonderchook: well depends also on people's view of officiallness though, it doesn't matter that something is "not an official channel" if to the public it appears to be
21:16 rweait: wonderchook: a comparison article is a nice choice for an op-ed, not so good for an OSMF announcement or policy.
21:17 wonderchook: rweait: I was mostly referring to twitter, I wouldn't see us necessarily writing a full announcement about it
21:17 harry-wood: yeah I think different channels and "officialness" is (yet another) fuzzy grey area in all this
21:17 JonathanB: Well, is 100% official
21:18 JonathanB: @openstreetmap on Twitter? 90%?
21:18 wonderchook: I know for example people get confused just when people blog on their own unless they label things at the top very clearly (though really controlling that would be difficult)
21:19 rweait: harry-wood, how are we doing for an agenda today? What's in front of us and how much time should we put into this atm?
21:19 wonderchook: I don't think I worded it right, but I think what sparked this was mention of commercial orgs using OSM
21:19 harry-wood: rweait: Yes we didn't do an agenda yet.
21:20 harry-wood: Other things to discuss today?
21:20 rweait: weekly post-hoc comms review?
21:20 rweait: - CWG staffing?
21:20 rweait: - LWG staffing announcement?
21:20 rweait: - Beuller?
21:21 harry-wood: Beuller?
21:21 JonathanB: Board oversight?
21:21 rweait: sorry.  :-) ignore.
21:21 harry-wood: OK those are all good
21:21 rweait: board oversight is quick.
21:22 harry-wood: yes. We have none.
21:22 rweait: I've seen no reply re: board member to voersee CWG.
21:22 harry-wood: though Henk mentioned to me he may get involved again
21:22 JonathanB: gets crazy (again)
21:23 harry-wood: I don't see it as all that important. Just useful if we have something to ask the board... because we get that person to relay the question
21:23 harry-wood: next topic?
21:23 harry-wood: Let's talk about staffing
21:23 rweait: comms review? Did we send anythoing out to review?
21:23 harry-wood: oh ok
21:24 rweait: any tweets? +1s?
21:24 harry-wood: comms review. I didn't do many tweets
21:24 JonathanB: Nope.
21:24 harry-wood:
21:24 JonathanB: Nothing on G+ or FB from me.
21:24 harry-wood: I should have tweeted iD going live
21:24 harry-wood: but felt it was a bit late by the time I thought of it
21:24 rweait: nope. it's still alpha.
21:25 rweait: not ready for beginners.
21:25 harry-wood: yeah well there is that too certainly
21:25 JonathanB: Is it "live", or^Wwhat rweait said
21:25 harry-wood: It's live on the live database
21:25 harry-wood: so... a gradual soft rollout I suppose
21:25 harry-wood: Which makes exciting well planned big bang announcements more difficult
21:25 rweait: yup. Don't swamp them with "Wehere's the documentation..."
21:26 wonderchook: well, couldn't we do a call saying it is live and please experienced OSMers to look at it?
21:26 harry-wood: yeah. Well I think we should've tweeted when the news broke (and mentioned it's alpha) ....but bit late now
21:27 JonathanB: No, absolutely not -- some people get the wrong idea about how experienced they are :)
21:27 rweait: okay nothing for post-hoc review.
21:27 rweait: do we want to do anything on the matter that is taking up oxygen on talk@?
21:27 harry-wood: well we can note for the post-hoc review, that we're not tweeting enough
21:27 JonathanB: Can we learn anything we didn't already know?
21:27 rweait: :-)
21:27 JonathanB: +1 to harry-wood
21:28 wonderchook: does it make sense to have topics that aren't timesensitive to tweet about?
21:28 harry-wood: yeah I think so
21:29 wonderchook: I've done that before with our organizational accounts
21:29 harry-wood: historically we've always tweeted something which is news, but it doesn't have to be that way
21:29 JonathanB: "Did you know?"
21:29 harry-wood: it might be a bit jarring to suddenly come with a "did you know?"
21:30 harry-wood: not sure. What d'you think?
21:30 rweait: I like.
21:30 harry-wood: I think it would be better than nothing :-)
21:30 JonathanB: Only on slow news days
21:30 wonderchook: so if it is just news communication is not going to be often
21:30 rweait: it's work to come up with that topics, but nice to keep ourselves in the picture/
21:30 wonderchook: also I suppose we are looking to do mostly 1 way communication?
21:30 wonderchook: and not talk to people
21:31 rweait: There has been some of that in past.
21:31 wonderchook: one topic would be to point at other language twitter accounts from local chapters
21:31 harry-wood: Today replied to someone who mentioned @openstreetmap
21:31 JonathanB: Not necessarily.
21:31 harry-wood: but I replied from my account
21:31 wonderchook: yeah, so I mean people will reply to @openstreetmap, but the way things are written people are really encouraged to
21:31 wonderchook: things like "Check out this new feature on the website" is different than "What is your favorite feature to map?"
21:32 harry-wood: ah like discussion points
21:32 harry-wood: could be good I suppose yes
21:33 harry-wood: You were mentioning that we should do more following from @openstreetmap
21:33 rweait: send them to a survey on the blog?
21:33 harry-wood: unfortunately that's a limitation of the grouptweet thing. Can't do following with it I don't think
21:34 harry-wood: I removed direct access to @openstreetmap from my tweetdeck, but maybe I should put it back for the purpose of following
21:34 JonathanB: I don't see too much point in following from @openstreetmap, unless it's to make some kind of statement -- does any of us read who that account follows?
21:34 JonathanB: I find Tweetdeck allows me enough scope to find stuff out between groups and searches that it wouldn't allow me to do anything I can't already
21:35 wonderchook: JonathanB: it isn't really to read it
21:35 rweait: I can just imagine the firestorm, "How come @openstreetmap follows my competitor, but not me!?!?!?!" "Wahhhhhh!!!!!"
21:35 harry-wood: someone complained that @openstreetmap wasn't following @openstreetmapUS (now fixed)
21:35 rweait: Although, perhaps that Is a statement we want to make. :-)
21:36 JonathanB: harry-wood: Name names.
21:36 wonderchook: yeah, so what I do with @hotosm is I follow groups related to hum/osm/contributors
21:36 wonderchook: typically I don't really read the account though
21:36 wonderchook: things I retweet I find from hashtags or my personal account
21:36 JonathanB: Setting out groups for local language feeds is a good idea in principle, although in practice the quality of those is variable at best
21:37 wonderchook: JonathanB: it does vary but there are at least a few that are very good
21:37 wonderchook: and it would be like we would tweet them all at once
21:37 harry-wood: Well the local language twitter accounts are what we *are* following at the moment
21:37 harry-wood: but that's all pretty much
21:37 rweait: harry-wood: really? who squawked? that sounds, er, odd.
21:38 harry-wood: talking about this list right?
21:38 wonderchook: not full related, but HOT has a social media guide was are writing right now. There is a section on Twitter:
21:39 wonderchook: the main reason for the guide is trying to teach my colleagues how social media works
21:39 wonderchook: harry-wood: hmmmm so @openstreetmap doesn't really follow anyone for the most part
21:39 wonderchook: that is another style, which is also valid
21:39 harry-wood: right. I think it is valid
21:40 wonderchook: though @fakestevec is the first account followed....
21:40 harry-wood: others might argue that it would be a sensible marketing ploy to go on a following frenzy, trying to attract return follows
21:40 rweait: that might be the most quotable.
21:41 wonderchook: harry-wood that was part of my suggestion for doing it. Sometimes people don't know/look for accounts. The 2nd part is sometimes people do want to dm
21:41 JonathanB: harry-wood: I don't like that idea -- I get followed by people clearly hoping for me to follow back. I never do.
21:41 wonderchook: those that dm sometimes provide interesting information or they show their twitter account got hacked...
21:42 harry-wood: hehe
21:42 wonderchook: JonathanB: I will follow them back if they are interesting, if they clearly have nothing in common/interest to me I will not
21:42 harry-wood: but DMs don't work via grouptweet either
21:42 wonderchook: harry-wood: where does the account email to?
21:43 harry-wood: to
21:43 wonderchook: I would suggest having it email the CWG-list
21:43 rweait: +1 wonderchook
21:43 JonathanB: +1
21:43 rweait: we're supposed to reduce their workload, not flood them with tweets.
21:44 harry-wood: I assume they have the notifications switched off mind you
21:44 JonathanB: Well, that is a waste then
21:44 wonderchook: yeah, I would think we should then set them for DMs and @ replies
21:45 JonathanB: Although I think ThinkUp is nearly as good for @replies
21:45 harry-wood: @ replies we can see anyway using a search
21:45 JonathanB: wonderchook: You might like to look at
21:45 rweait: how are we on the agenda?
21:45 harry-wood: DMs we maybe missing at the moment. But not many people can DM it
21:46 JonathanB: I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing
21:46 wonderchook: true and those people DMing should know better at least right now
21:46 harry-wood: yeah so I dont think anyone *does* necessarily need to be on the notifications
21:46 harry-wood: So we went off the agenda there
21:47 harry-wood: what topic were we on?
21:47 JonathanB: We got here from post-hoc analysis, you saying "we should tweet more" and then we got here.
21:47 rweait: comms review.
21:47 harry-wood: still post-hoc reviewing and "did you know?" tweeting topic ideas
21:47 rweait: how about staffing?
21:47 harry-wood: ok
21:47 harry-wood: staffing yes
21:48 rweait: how many and who should we recruit?
21:48 harry-wood: What's LWG staffing situation?
21:48 rweait: They want more. I owe them a blog.
21:48 harry-wood: ok. they need legal experts I suppose
21:48 rweait: um,
21:48 rweait: at least legally-aware, or -sensitive.
21:49 harry-wood: or people who like talking about law (counts me out)
21:49 rweait: but also LWG want good use cases to discuss and "make easy"
21:49 harry-wood: So you're ok to take care of a blog post?
21:49 rweait: part of it is communication.
21:49 harry-wood: You want us to review it later?
21:50 rweait: sure. I'll post a draft to our list before, so we can fix any boo boos.
21:50 harry-wood: great
21:50 rweait: Thursday, probably.
21:50 harry-wood: so onto CWG staffing
21:51 harry-wood: I was going to ask Pascal Neis. Did get round to it
21:51 JonathanB: Well, one of our biggest problems is reaching non-Anglophone mappers
21:51 harry-wood: you mean in terms of communicating in other languages
21:51 harry-wood: or reaching them as in making them feel part of it all?
21:51 rweait: Right. we do have multi-language capabiliy, but we've let it whither.
21:51 JonathanB: In any predictable kind of way, yes
21:52 rweait: I'd love to have that notification portion of the translation module. Or perhaps an in-house email notification?
21:53 rweait: WP browns me off because the multi-lingual stuff is non-free.
21:53 JonathanB: I don't have enough Fu on blog.osmf to check out what we can do.
21:53 rweait: language experts can post other language versions of the articles.
21:54 JonathanB: Sorry -- as in the notification options
21:54 : Blackadder left the room (quit: Quit: heading for the next unmapped place=).
21:54 rweait: Worst case, could we just pipe rss to a mailing list, and have translators read the list and translate new articles?
21:55 rweait: Relies on the translators checking that list. (or the rss...)
21:55 harry-wood: yeah well ultimately RSS should allow the translators to be notified
21:55 wonderchook: rweait: non-free?
21:55 rweait: paid WP module.
21:55 wonderchook: there is a good one we've been using in Indonesia
21:55 harry-wood: we have a non-free plugin for translations on
21:55 rweait: do tell?
21:55 JonathanB: It's free, just not Free.
21:57 harry-wood: There was a major piece of work to merge and
21:57 harry-wood: part of that could be to re-examine translation options
21:57 wonderchook: I'm looking to see if the one was are using is Free
21:58 wonderchook: this is what we use:
21:58 harry-wood: firefishy is a key steakholder in all of this... since he maintains it. e.g. updating wordpress versions etc
21:59 harry-wood: we've used on
21:59 wonderchook: so are there many non-Anglophone mappers who are willing to translate? Do we need to do recruiting?
22:00 wonderchook: being that I'm guessing this working group is all native english speakers
22:00 wonderchook: at least at the moment
22:00 harry-wood: well... we have a list of users enabled on the wordpress for
22:00 harry-wood: some quicker than others at doing translations
22:01 rweait: wonderchook: even when traslation was activley pursued, it was spotty. So yes, more recuiting and engagement are needed.
22:01 rweait: We need to make it "worth it" for them.
22:01 harry-wood: I think we may need to pat them on the back in some bigger way. e.g. list them as honarary CWG members to make them feel more important
22:01 rweait: Why honourary?
22:01 harry-wood: Well... or as members of CWG yes
22:01 JonathanB: Hell, if they're doing our work, they're one of us
22:01 wonderchook: yeah, I think they could be members
22:01 rweait: they're important.
22:02 rweait: we should touch base with them again and offer that. Recognize them anyway...
22:02 JonathanB: However, that will probably require us to transact more business asynchronously, and less in this synchronous meeting
22:02 harry-wood: they're not in the meetings doing all the other CWGing things. Maybe we could have a list of various kinds of CWG helpers
22:02 harry-wood: (or on the CWG emails of course)
22:02 rweait: well the posting policy helps with this.
22:03 rweait: we can add them for the email I think.
22:03 wonderchook: or give them a cool name for our recruiting. "Come join the Multi-lingual brigade" okay that name isn't very cool
22:03 rweait: :-)
22:03 rweait: better than the one I had.
22:03 harry-wood: With the big blog merging operation and the translation plugin stuff... there's some more tech work to do there and liasing with firefishy
22:03 harry-wood: so I can take that on at some point perhaps
22:03 rweait: we about to wrap up?
22:04 harry-wood: unless we can recruit a wordpress wizard of course
22:04 rweait: I have an outreach thing tomorrow.
22:04 harry-wood: an outreach thing?
22:04 rweait: I'm doing an OSM intro for LocationTech, on video.
22:04 harry-wood: ah cool
22:04 rweait: It'll be everywhere, I'm sure. I'll try to remember all youlittle people.
22:04 harry-wood: live video? or you're recording an intro?
22:05 rweait: live video, and then archived.
22:05 rweait: G+ hangout.
22:05 harry-wood: sounds good
22:05 JonathanB: Shall I pimp on +OpenStreetMap/
22:05 JonathanB: ?
22:05 harry-wood: don't forget to do your hair and makeup
22:05 rweait: looking for a link.
22:06 rweait: It'll be up somewhere tomorrow. Their launching a new web site as well....
22:06 rweait: they're.
22:06 rweait: :(
22:07 harry-wood: We discussed some issues which are around CWG staffing just now. I like the idea of co-opting translators and CWGers or semi-CWGers. And maybe having groups of other assistants
22:07 harry-wood: anything else on CWG staffing?
22:07 harry-wood: I'll email pascal N about it
22:07 rweait: I have to run shortly.
22:08 harry-wood: anyone else you can think of like that who has proven awesomeness when it comes to communicating
22:08 harry-wood: we should just ask them directly
22:08 rweait: +1
22:08 harry-wood: preferably people who aren't allready running around for OSM like headless chickens
22:08 harry-wood: looks in wonderchook's direction :-)
22:09 wonderchook: just because I'm typing to you from Ubud, Bali and was in Sydney yesterday means nothing;)
22:09 wonderchook: and the chook name thing of course too;)
22:09 rweait: okay, I'm outta here. See y'all next week.
22:09 harry-wood: I'll try to carry on fleshing out this policy doc
22:09 rweait: all the best!  :-)
22:09 wonderchook: see ya rweait
22:09 harry-wood: but join in with that if you fancy
22:09 harry-wood: see you rweait
22:10 wonderchook: I'll stick around and help harry-wood
22:10 harry-wood: Well I didn't mean I was going to do it now
22:10 harry-wood: but maybe I could :-)
22:10 wonderchook: ha, okay
22:10 harry-wood: Are we good to call a close on CWG this week?
22:10 JonathanB: I'm done
22:11 harry-wood: ok
22:11 harry-wood: keep communicating
22:11 harry-wood: communication high fives all round
22:14 wonderchook: woooo
22:14 wonderchook: harry-wood: I wonder if questionable use of OSM data should follow into the guide
22:14 wonderchook: like if people were using OSM to launch missiles or kick out slum dwellers or something
22:15 harry-wood: yeah. or maybe there's a sort of "ethical practices" catch all
22:16 JonathanB: One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
22:19 harry-wood: yeah. unfortunately "use your judgement" needs to be the overriding get out clause on all of this
22:21 wonderchook: true
22:25 wonderchook: should we list the communications channels in the document, just to be clear?
22:43 JonathanB: wonderchook: There's if you want to add that to your media guide
22:43 wonderchook: thanks!