CWG meeting 2016-11-18
Process for email responses & blogging
- Email replies initially on github (create a github issue with the email content, and then discuss it there)
- Email replies: always copy the group address
- Can ping on IRC #osm-cwg OFTC
- Increase frequency on the blog, twitter and facebook
Processes interacting with WeeklyOSM and differences
- CWG publishing news directly related to OSM, OSMF and events thereof (but e.g. not about tagging schemes and stuff like that)
- Care about wording as people will assume "represent the views of the Foundation"
- "Real time" news publication vs scheduled (weeklyOSM)
- Potential OSMBC checkbox to flag a post to be potentially good for Twitter (OSMBC is used by weeklyOSM)
- Buffer works well for scheduling tweets but expensive for teams
Plan to make plan
- Write short-term and long-term plan for CWG
- Meetings will probably be recurring, 3rd Friday of each month, 20:00 London time, unless rescheduled.
- Addition of small country-flag next to translators on CWG page
- Wille & Peda to create some model replies for emails
- Harry to update CWG description
- Harry to email CWG members & translators about being on the list
Peda to give Wille access for OSMBC testing(done) Dorothea to send draft OSMF leaflet created by Frederik(done)
Github issues mentioned
- https://github.com/osmfoundation/cwg/issues/31 Alternatives to GroupTweet
- https://github.com/osmfoundation/cwg/issues/36 Default answers
- https://github.com/osmfoundation/cwg/issues/38 Update the list of CWGers
Next IRC meeting
Friday 16th December 2000 UTC #cwg-osm on oftc.net
19:58 dorothea: hello :)
19:59 peda_: hi dorothea :)
19:59 dorothea: :)
20:00 jinalfoflia: Hello : )
20:01 dorothea: hey :)
20:02 harry-wood: Hello
20:02 Zverik: hi everyone
20:02 peda_: hi all
20:02 peda_: please let me introduce dorothea to you all
20:02 peda_: she's our great administrative assistant of the osmf board
20:02 harry-wood: Aha right
20:02 peda_: and as we had a board meeting just one hour ago I told her about the cwg meeting and invited her
20:03 jinalfoflia: Hi Dorothea! So glad that you are here!]
20:03 jinalfoflia: Hi Dorothea! So glad that you are here!
20:03 dorothea: thanks, nice to meet you :)
20:04 harry-wood: so according to our records… https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes#Communication_Working_Group …. the last CWG meeting we' had was in March
20:05 harry-wood: Since then we've got some new people joining in the fun. Particularly Jinal
20:06 harry-wood: so I wanted to give jinal a chance to meet and talk through stuff
20:07 peda_: well, I guess I'm also kind of new as I at one point got access to WP and do translations since then. But I still feel a bit like a n00b ;)
20:08 harry-wood: I'd like people to get stuck in with doing some day-to-day stuff that CWG needs to be taking care of. We need more people helping write blog posts and facebook posts
20:09 harry-wood: I think it's maybe a bit difficult to have confidence with getting started on such things
20:09 : wille [~email@example.com] entered the room.
20:09 harry-wood: But drafting things in a hackpad works well I think
20:09 wille: hello! sorry for the delay
20:09 harry-wood: hi wille
20:10 peda_: the "problem" I see right now is, that the workflow is unknown to me
20:10 jinalfoflia: Thank you Harry for setting this meeting up! Agree to that, it take a while to understand how everything works ;)
20:10 peda_: when I wrote blog posts, I pinged you on IRC
20:10 peda_: and whenever I read something on the ML that should be answered it's still a bit early for me to react
20:11 peda_: I want to get more confident first.. see others comment and reply
20:11 harry-wood: Oh yeah. emails coming to communication AT osmfoundatin.org
20:11 peda_: as I'm a bit "afraid" to answer to inquiries as I'm not sure if it's ok to do so
20:11 harry-wood: that's another day-to-day thing that's true
20:11 peda_: on the other hand there are some that stay unresponded :)
20:11 harry-wood: (also press AT osmfoundation.org comes to our email group)
20:12 wille: peda_: I thought about to create some models of replies, because there are a lot of similar questions
20:12 jinalfoflia: Yes, do we have some process on how we answer them? Or who answers what emails?
20:12 peda_: wille: yeah that would be great. And (despite bad english) I'd even help with that
20:12 harry-wood: We don't really have a good way to avoid two people working on a response to the same thing
20:13 harry-wood: Like a ticketing system
20:13 peda_: my main question is, and I think it's kind of the same direction as jinalfoflia: Is it ok to simply reply if there's a mail coming in?
20:13 jinalfoflia: That's a good idea <harry-wood>
20:14 harry-wood: We started using github a bit for this stuff
20:14 harry-wood: meaning we create a github issue with the email content, and then discuss it there
20:14 harry-wood: but that still doesn't necessarily avoid two people wroking on the same thing
20:14 harry-wood: and might be overkill if we can just fire off a quick response
20:15 peda_: couldn't we agree on idleing in IRC?
20:15 harry-wood: so… yeah the process is a little tricky
20:15 peda_: and just say "working on that"
20:15 harry-wood: yeah idling on IRC is a good idea
20:15 peda_: that's what we mainly do in DWG and imho it works great
20:15 harry-wood: in this #osm-cwg channel? yeah could work
20:15 jinalfoflia: I think is a best way to things like this, we could ticket it and share the hacked link if it's a blog post. If it's an email that someone wants to respond they can assign themselves. This will resolve any ambiguity related to the post/blog/email
20:16 peda_: harry-wood: yes, would love that
20:16 jinalfoflia: *hackpad
20:17 harry-wood: It's pretty low traffic so not worth worrying about too much, but then again I do appreciate the help when people respond to stuff which I've forgotten :-)
20:18 peda_: yes
20:18 harry-wood: One very important part of the process (which I think we're sticking to well) is to always copy in the group address again with each reply
20:18 harry-wood: otherwise we might no know a reply has been sent
20:19 harry-wood: which would be bad :-)
20:19 jinalfoflia: Agree to that.
20:20 Zverik: a channel does not matter, irc clients show notifications when pinged in any channel, including #osm
20:20 harry-wood: So yeah. These are some day-to-day things
20:20 harry-wood: I think on the blogging it could work to be mentioning that in the IRC channel here too
20:20 harry-wood: link to a hackpad for a thing we're working on
20:21 jinalfoflia: When we refer to channel, do we refer to a channel in IRC?
20:21 peda_: yes
20:21 harry-wood: yeah #osm-cwg is the "channel"
20:21 peda_: this one
20:22 harry-wood: I've rarely done any blogging lately, but spend a bit of time composing some facebook sentences for "Image of the week" quite often (did one today)
20:23 harry-wood: In the short term actually I'll just mention that we need to put out a blog post about…
20:23 harry-wood: v2 of iD : https://hackpad.com/Version-2-of-the-iD-editor-BO3DoueE8iC
20:23 harry-wood: so there we go. A hackpad!
20:24 jinalfoflia: <harry-wood> Is there a frequency on the number of blogs we want to do in a month or a week?
20:25 harry-wood: I think we want a bit more frequency on the blog, and quite a bit more frequency on twitter & facebook
20:25 harry-wood: sounds reasonable?
20:26 harry-wood: This is a key area where I think the community have an expectation of CWG, which we're not always meeting
20:26 wille: I agree
20:27 jinalfoflia: Sounds perfect, so I can say that we could do 2 blogs a month and 4 posts a month? We could open an issue on GitHub for this blog post (id) and continue our conversations there. It can information on when are we planning to publish it.
20:27 jinalfoflia: We could just try this and see if it works?
20:28 jinalfoflia: > This is a key area where I think the community have an expectation of CWG, which we're not always meeting
20:28 jinalfoflia: What do they generally expect from us <harry-wood>?
20:28 harry-wood: Well… so yes I wanted to talk about "aims & objectives" of CWG in general
20:29 harry-wood: Because I think we should update our description here; https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Communication_Working_Group
20:29 harry-wood: It's a bit old.
20:30 harry-wood: Originally CWG spent a fair bit of effort setting up and writing words to go on osmfoundation.org in general (not just that page) but these days I'm not sure if that's important
20:30 harry-wood: Well maybe it is. Maybe that's a thing we should still pay more attention to
20:32 harry-wood: Maybe "The web presence and the comms presence of the foundation" is a primary concern
20:32 harry-wood: I think there's a bit of an expectation that we're managing web presence and comms of OSM in general
20:32 harry-wood: but of course there's lots of other groups doing comms
20:32 peda_: expectations by whome?
20:33 harry-wood: Just people I talk to about CWG
20:33 peda_: ok
20:33 peda_: in my view the CWG does kind of the official PR for OSM/OSMF stuff
20:34 harry-wood: When I say "expectations" I mean… everyone knows you can't necessarily expect volunteers to do anything, but if you *could* expect, then this is what they would expect :-)
20:34 peda_: I saw much similarities to Weekly in that sense. Though with a bit of a different focus and not a "each week"-focus but more like "there's news, so get it out"
20:35 jinalfoflia: I did not understand this <peda_> :)
20:35 peda_: well, it's just my opinion or observation:
20:36 peda_: I see much similarities between WeeklyOSM and CWG
20:36 peda_: the difference is, that WeeklyOSM is produced once a week with a bit of a broader scope in topics
20:37 peda_: and I think/thought that CWG is about publishing news directly related to OSM, OSMF and events thereof (but e.g. not about tagging schemes and stuff like that)
20:37 peda_: and CWG does not collect it to publish it once a week. But CWG publish it whenever it happened. And it publishes it on twitter, facebook and/or blog
20:38 peda_: whatever the news is and how big the news is
20:38 jinalfoflia: Ahh got it, thank you peda!
20:38 peda_: but that's just my impression that this is at least a big scope of the CWG.
20:39 peda_: and when I understand harry-wood correctly he kind of wants to do that and mainly increase the number of posts (again)
20:39 harry-wood: Yes. Also I think we can say that we're managing the "voice of the foundation" when we post from "OpenStreetMap", and so sometimes we might handle topics …sensitively …where WeeklyOSM will put the news out there.
20:39 peda_: yep
20:40 peda_: e.g. we wouldn't post something controversal about humanitarians :-)
20:41 harry-wood: Indeed. Interesting case in point. If HOT is having a bit of competitive tension with ProjectEOF then WeeklyOSM will come out and say so… while the "voice of the foundation" would steer clear of saying so, and stick strictly to the positives
20:41 peda_: yes, makes perfect sense
20:42 harry-wood: Maybe because CWG are writing with a more external target audience, but I think mainly because we're writing words which people will assume "represent the views of the foundation"
20:44 harry-wood: Most of the time it's no biggie, but worth being aware of
20:44 jinalfoflia: Agree.
20:44 peda_: yes
20:45 peda_: I'd still like to work more closely with weeklyOSM and I'd have a suggestion for that
20:45 harry-wood: oh yeah?
20:46 peda_: Imho blog posts and twitter(/facebook) have to be differenciated
20:46 peda_: blog posts are "big", much text,.. it makes sense to write them in a hackpad, give them some time and thought and perhaps also to collect and manage them via github or whatever
20:47 peda_: but I think this does not make any sense for twitter (and facebook/g+?)
20:48 peda_: the important thing for twitter is to be fast. it's short text, not much. But it should be kind of "regular". i.e. once a month would be a bit low
20:48 peda_: the weeklyOSM collects news and at one point writes articles and once a week publishes all that
20:49 peda_: I didn't talk to Christoph (the developer of the OSMBC software), but the idea would be to ask him for a little extension
20:49 peda_: a checkbox or something like that in OSMBC to flag a post to be potentially good for Twitter
20:50 peda_: as you do now, you can write a text for that news item, comment on it and so on
20:50 peda_: and you have another view: a "twitter list" that is sorted chronological
20:51 peda_: and those with twitter access go to that list e.g. every two days or whenever they have time and tweet whatever they want
20:51 peda_: and have a "delete" button. Either because they don't want to tweet it or as it is tweeted
20:51 harry-wood: Ah ok. So there'd still be a copying over step
20:51 harry-wood: yeah that would work I guess
20:51 peda_: yes. So that e.g. you have control over it
20:51 peda_: but the weekly guys collect quite much
20:52 peda_: so we would gain from that
20:52 jinalfoflia: peda I tried doing this for a while, what I would do was get some important stuff (highlights) from all the news published on weekly and share it in the email.
20:52 harry-wood: There's was a new feature to do with voting up and down added to OSMBC wasn't there?
20:52 harry-wood: heard something about it
20:52 peda_: yes
20:53 peda_: it's used whenever there's a discussion about relevance of an article
20:53 peda_: so you know what others think
20:53 harry-wood: hows that working out?
20:53 peda_: (Wochennotiz did discuss that in Slack before)
20:53 peda_: well. it
20:53 peda_: 's not perfect but better than slack
20:53 harry-wood: I guess being relatively small restricted group, it's not going to get so many votes like a reddit post
20:54 peda_: because you have the info at one place and don't have to search the slack logs :-)
20:54 peda_: no, 1-3 votes
20:54 wille: is there a instance of osmbc for cwg?
20:54 peda_: it's just to help you see if we should remove it or not
20:54 peda_: wille: no
20:54 harry-wood: I see
20:55 harry-wood: wille: but I'm sure you could get yourself access on there. Trouble is manfred will try to rope you into doing work there :-D
20:55 peda_: :D
20:55 jinalfoflia: :D
20:56 dorothea: :)
20:56 peda_: wille: if you want to try it, I can provide you an account to test and have a look
20:56 harry-wood: In some previous CWG chat I was talking with Zverik about my hack idea here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Harry_Wood/hack_ideas#Group_tweeting_tool
20:56 wille: peda_: great! I want
20:56 peda_: and if you all agree I'd talk to Christoph if he would be willing to work/help with something like that to try it out
20:57 harry-wood: I had the idea that if we initially made a replacement off grouptweet, we could extend it with permissions level features or "drafted tweet" type features
20:58 harry-wood: but maybe doing the drafting within OSMBC makes more sense
20:58 wille: harry-wood: Maybe it can help https://buffer.com/
20:58 jinalfoflia: We could use tools like buffer to schedule tweets
20:59 jinalfoflia: wille :D
20:59 jinalfoflia: I use it personally and it works great for FB and twitter
20:59 jinalfoflia: Another question: Would setting up some goals in the beginning of the month help us communicate well with people who follow us on social media?
21:00 wille: the problem is that buffer is very expensive for teams
21:00 harry-wood: yeah. that's always a bummer
21:00 jinalfoflia: We could use a single account wille and just share the credentials?
21:00 harry-wood: as I mentioned here: https://github.com/osmfoundation/cwg/issues/31 "I'd like to find an approach that works for OSMUK and OSMLondon and an approach which we can encourage http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_centric_Twitter_accounts to make use of"
21:02 harry-wood: But maybe maybe I'm confusing two requirements here. There's the draftibg/picking of tweets, and the ability to actually send the tweet with group permissions
21:03 jinalfoflia: Buffer would just help in drafting + scheduling
21:04 harry-wood: I'll have to take a look
21:04 harry-wood: Anyway… we're getting into a tech/tool choice detail
21:05 harry-wood: On the wider issues… I'd like to update our CWG description a bit on the site. Maybe I'll hackpad than and run it past you all
21:05 jinalfoflia: I also have some research on the tools, i'll post it on the ticket :-)
21:06 peda_: that would be great harry-wood
21:06 peda_: you also said a while back that you'd like to separate the user's list to members and translators? is that still the case?
21:06 harry-wood: Yes. That was a plan
21:06 harry-wood: …which I never got round to
21:06 harry-wood: https://github.com/osmfoundation/cwg/issues/38
21:07 dorothea: I get 404 for that
21:07 harry-wood: I think that'd be a good thing to do, to make CWG look bigger :-)
21:07 peda_: dorothea: you're not on that team I guess
21:08 dorothea: ah, I see ~ thanks :)
21:08 harry-wood: hmmm I think I can't actually change the team. Maybe Zverik can
21:08 peda_: harry-wood: hm, I was just wondering if the difference makes sense
21:08 peda_: right now the CWG looks big, but we have so many dead members on it that don't do anything, isn't it?
21:08 peda_: so n00bs that have a look might get the impression we have enough peaople
21:09 harry-wood: Yes. I think I need to go through a process of email people and seeing if they're ok with being deleted off the list
21:10 harry-wood: Likewise with translators I need to email them. In some cases I'll be reminding them that they have access to do translations on the blog. and asking if they want to be listed on there
21:10 Zverik: dorothea: I've added you
21:10 dorothea: thanks Ilya :)
21:10 peda_: and we should add a small country-flag aside of translators
21:10 harry-wood: (unless… somebody else fancies this job!)
21:11 peda_: so that n00bs know which languages are missing :-)
21:12 harry-wood: And…
21:12 harry-wood: I think we should actually write out a short term and long term plan
21:13 harry-wood: Maybe that could be linked from https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Communication_Working_Group and shared on the OSMF mailing list
21:13 harry-wood: drum up a bit of interest in what we're up to
21:13 peda_: oh btw, I forgot to note
21:14 peda_: dorothea got asked by Kate/the board to do occasional reports about what the WGs do
21:14 jinalfoflia: That's a great idea Harry! Short - long term plans will help a lot.
21:14 peda_: I hope that's correct what I said, dorothea :D
21:15 dorothea: yes, it is
21:15 harry-wood: Great! To report to the board? or publicly?
21:15 peda_: publicly, osmf-talk (and board :-))
21:17 harry-wood: Cool. I think we need all the working groups to describe themselves fully in and up-to-date way on the site
21:17 harry-wood: as I said here: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2016-November/003976.html I'm going to nag the others to do this, but… we need to put our own house in order first :-)
21:17 peda_: ;)
21:18 peda_: so what do you suggest for the "plan"? collect via hackpad? github issue?
21:18 peda_: or IRC ?
21:18 : jinalfoflia left the room (quit: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:19 harry-wood: yes
21:19 : jinalfoflia [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room.
21:19 harry-wood: :-)
21:19 peda_: :D
21:19 peda_: it actually was an xor :P
21:19 harry-wood: Let's do it… on those things
21:19 dorothea: lol:)
21:20 harry-wood: So we've been going for 1hr 20.
21:20 harry-wood: Before we bring this to a close
21:20 harry-wood: …any other issues to discuss?
21:20 dorothea: yes, one
21:20 peda_: me too ;)
21:20 peda_: you first
21:20 dorothea: thanks :)
21:22 dorothea: Frederik and me created a leaflet that could be printed out on events, aimed at both individuals and companies. It's definately in the area of CWG, so I'd liek to ask you if you want to take this over or provide input
21:22 dorothea: (I would love to help, if everyone is ok with that)
21:23 wille: dorothea: great! I can help
21:23 harry-wood: Yeah I think it's definitely a good idea for CWG to be involved
21:24 harry-wood: Does it mean we have to be in charge of printing and distribution though?
21:24 dorothea: shall I send it via email or create a github issue?
21:24 dorothea: no, just for the content and deign
21:24 dorothea: design*
21:24 harry-wood: Cool yeah Frederik's done some good leaflet printing in the past, and some Andy Allan ended up with a massive stockpile of leaflets
21:25 wille: peda_ jinalfoflia after the meeting, you can take a look on this issue https://github.com/osmfoundation/cwg/issues/36
21:26 jinalfoflia: 👍🏻
21:26 harry-wood: I'm certainly reluctant to be volunteering CWG to be involved in "taking over" where other people were doing fine before, but makes sense for us to look at the design
21:27 harry-wood: And peda_ you had an issue to discuss?
21:27 peda_: well, just a short thing:
21:28 peda_: I'd like to ask/opt for repeating such meetings more often/regularly (e.g. one a month or every two months)
21:28 peda_: and for generally using this channel for idling to talk about quick issues (tweets,..)
21:28 harry-wood: Oh yes. Good point
21:29 wille: peda_: it would be good to have frequent meetings
21:29 dorothea: I would love to be present in future meetings and in the channel, if everyone is ok with it
21:29 jinalfoflia: Second that, we should do it at least once a month :)
21:30 harry-wood: ok once a month
21:30 harry-wood: did 8pm on Friday work ok?
21:30 wille: yes!
21:30 peda_: yes
21:30 peda_: dorothea you're of course welcome to join ;)
21:30 wille: I need to leave now. Bye everyone!
21:30 dorothea: thanks :)
21:30 : wille left the room (quit: Quit: Page closed).
21:30 dorothea: bye wille
21:30 harry-wood: bye wille
21:31 harry-wood: yes dorothea! Also would you like to be added to the communication@ email group?
21:31 dorothea: sure, thank you :)
21:31 harry-wood: and added to the list of CWG folks on https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Communication_Working_Group ?
21:32 dorothea: where would you like me to send the leaflet? at the mailing list or at github?
21:32 dorothea: sure, thanks
21:32 dorothea: :)
21:32 dorothea: do I need to sign an NDA?
21:32 harry-wood: hehe yep. all top secret round here :-)
21:32 harry-wood: (no!)
21:33 jinalfoflia: I need to go too, thank you all!
21:33 dorothea: haha, ok :)
21:33 : jinalfoflia left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
21:33 harry-wood: Is the leaftet design at a URL?
21:33 harry-wood: post it to github
21:33 harry-wood: if it's an attachment… yeah I suppose that could go on github too
21:33 peda_: do you have "just" text or actual file format?
21:33 dorothea: sure, I'll do that
21:34 dorothea: I have text and svg
21:34 peda_: with scribus or inkscape? :-)
21:35 dorothea: the margins were created with scribus and the content was added with inkscape (as far as I remember)
21:35 peda_: great
21:35 harry-wood: So Friday 16ht December at 8pm could be a good time hey?
21:36 peda_: yep, 2 hours after board meeting :D
21:36 dorothea: yes, great :)
21:37 harry-wood: that's after the board meeting hey? too much?
21:37 harry-wood: I *could* do a doodle poll again
21:37 peda_: no, it's fine
21:37 harry-wood: alright then!
21:39 harry-wood: Let's do some doing of things in between meetings too
21:39 peda_: yes :D
21:39 harry-wood: I'll have read back through all the things I just promised to do :-O
21:39 dorothea: lol :)
21:39 peda_: I (or Tordanik) still have a GSoC post in the loop that I didn't finish yet
21:40 harry-wood: oh right. cool
21:40 harry-wood: anything else to say before we close?
21:40 peda_: no :-)
21:41 : jinalfoflia [~email@example.com] entered the room.
21:41 : jinalfoflia left the room (quit: ).
21:42 dorothea: nope ~ it was great to be here, thanks for the invitation and allowing me to join :)
21:42 harry-wood: No probs! Thanks for joining!
21:42 dorothea: :)
21:42 harry-wood: So I will post the minutes to here: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/index.php?title=CWG_meeting_2016-11-18
21:43 harry-wood: Got to go now, but I will idle on this channel
21:43 harry-wood: ....
21:43 harry-wood: meeting
21:43 harry-wood: ....