Local Chapters Working Group/Meeting 2011-04-19
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|seav||Eugene Alvin Villar||y|
[17:12] toffehoff: Looking at the time.... [17:12] karida: It seems others are caught by deadlines as well [17:13] toffehoff: Think they do as well (deadlines...) [17:13] toffehoff: Question.... [17:14] karida: Well, we can postpone for a week [17:14] toffehoff: I was going through some draft agreements etc. [17:14] toffehoff: also looking at the ones of the WMF [17:15] toffehoff: As a draft, could we just take the WMF ones and tweak them a bit ... ? [17:15] karida: Well, I haven't looked at it yet. [17:16] karida: I think it would be nice to have everything ready before SotM ... it would be a nice milestone as probably many of us would be there, right? [17:16] toffehoff: Would be great.... yes. [17:16] toffehoff: btw, which SotM do you mean ? [17:16] toffehoff: EU of Denver? [17:17] karida: The one in Denver. [17:17] karida: I can't go to the one in EU [17:17] toffehoff: Denver is a good choice [17:18] toffehoff: I'll be at both ... But that could be expected [17:18] karida: I'm usually at FOSS4G, so this year it suits well [17:18] toffehoff: Awesome. That was also one of the reasons to go for Denver and move it to September. [17:18] karida: Last years was unlucky, because I couldn't afford to travel to Spain twice [17:19] toffehoff: Can imagine. [17:19] karida: Well, we should then maybe organise some local chapter talk/meeting [17:20] toffehoff: Back to agreement etc. .... Shall I start a document based on the WMF one and change it to what we've discussed before? [17:20] karida: Yes, that would be nice. I can't help much with legal talk [17:21] toffehoff: I'm not a legal person as well, but have been in contact with some guys in the past [17:22] toffehoff: If we have something like that we can through it to the mailinglist and (hopefully) get some responses. [17:22] toffehoff: through = throw [17:24] karida: Do you have any idea how a roadmap could look like if we for example want to have everything done until Denver? [17:24] karida: Probably the decision making process within OSMF might take quite some time as well [17:25] toffehoff: Right..... Thinking about it .... [17:26] toffehoff: I'm not sure how we should get this thing accepted? [17:26] karida: I have absolutely now no idea how bureaucratic OSMF is already [17:26] toffehoff: Does this needs to be voted on in the AGM... [17:27] toffehoff: I'll discuss this within board how to get this done ... [17:27] karida: Probably it's necessary to try to define some roadmap to get to some result in the near future. [17:27] toffehoff: Absolutely. [17:28] karida: From the local chapters there is not much to decide, I think, so it's pretty easy. [17:28] toffehoff: Can we now roughly decide what kind of deliverables we have. [17:28] toffehoff: - Agreement [17:28] toffehoff: - Procedure how to become an LC [17:29] toffehoff: Anything else? [17:29] karida: I don't think it needs more [17:29] karida: Something to sign and some rules [17:30] toffehoff: Should we try and do both at the same time? [17:30] karida: Probably the agreement can be derived from the procedure and requirements to become a LC [17:30] seav betrad het kanaal. [17:31] seav: sorry i'm late [17:31] toffehoff: Hello! [17:31] karida: hi [17:31] toffehoff: Just discussing a roadmap ... which steps to take .... [17:31] seav: ok, i'm reviewing the log [17:31] karida: http://openstreetmap.jp/irclog/%23osm_chapters/2011-04-20.html [17:32] seav: karida, very useful btw [17:32] karida: we had a discussion about privacy and IRC logs in the Japanese community [17:32] karida: no everyone likes the logs [17:33] seav: i see [17:33] karida: so we decided to exclude them from search through robots.txt [17:34] seav: well, we aren't really talking about confidential stuff, right? [17:34] karida: right ... you better don't do this on IRC anyway [17:35] seav: anyway, regarding talking stuff from WMF, wasn't this done before? [17:35] toffehoff: We talked about it before. [17:35] toffehoff: Was looking at the text and thought about copying it. Felt a bit like stealing.... [17:36] seav: i remember seeing a sorta "how to become a local chapter" document somewhere that I recognized came from wikimedia [17:36] seav: back in 2009 [17:36] toffehoff: Could be. [17:36] toffehoff: I now was refering to the agreement. [17:36] seav: the main problem was that it wouldn't fit the german situation [17:36] toffehoff: We can tweak it... [17:37] toffehoff: and the same with membership..... [17:37] seav: ok [17:38] toffehoff: We're all good with taking the WMF agreement as boilerplate for ours? [17:38] toffehoff: .... and change them to our needs .... [17:39] karida: I think if it works for Wikimedia it can't be a bad document to start with [17:39] seav: i'm ok with it [17:39] seav: i'm biased of course [17:39] toffehoff: At least you're not upset with us taking the WMF as boilerplate ... [17:40] seav: maybe the WMF would be [17:40] seav: but i'm not WMF [17:40] seav: [17:41] toffehoff: Let me work on the draft agreement. [17:41] toffehoff: Is anyone of you both interested in setting up the draft procedure how to become a chapter? [17:42] karida: What about stealing? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_chapter_creation_guide [17:42] toffehoff: ... or go over the one that's already drawn up on the wiki.... [17:42] seav: is it a procedure really? or a list of requirements? [17:43] karida: I think the requirements are enough at first [17:43] seav: one minor problem is that the WMF procedures assume that the local chapter has not been founded yet [17:43] karida: Then later someone can make a more beautiful guide as the WMF [17:43] seav: with OSM, there are already existing orgs: Estonia, Spain, USA, Japan, Philippines [17:44] toffehoff: Requirements and also where to apply ... [17:44] toffehoff: that kind of stuff... [17:44] karida: Well, for those already exisitng, this would be a special case anyway and doesn't need a guide anymore [17:44] seav: it's possible that something about an existing org is unacceptable to OSMF [17:45] karida: OSMF Japan actually thought the currently listed requirements are already defined, so we setup the local chapter with those requirements in mind [17:46] seav: i see [17:46] toffehoff: Before we go into that ..... [17:46] karida: Already existing LC can tell, if the requirements wouldn't work for them [17:46] toffehoff: Let's first see what the requirements are. [17:47] toffehoff: and then see if we may have a problem. [17:47] seav: 1) non-profit [17:47] seav: 2) membership-based org [17:47] seav: 3) aims/objectives/mission-vision aligned with OSMF [17:47] karida: Isn't it described as "Rules for Local Chapters" [17:48] seav: also, do we allow overlapping chapters? [17:48] seav: e.g., OSM Espana and OSM Catalonia? [17:48] toffehoff: First reaction: I would say no. [17:49] karida: We could say it must be a country [17:49] seav: how about sub-countries (especially in federated states)? [17:49] seav: like OSM Queensland [17:49] toffehoff: e.g. the usa. [17:49] seav: or OSM Quebec [17:49] karida: You could then say they need to be local chapters of the local chapters [17:50] seav: ah, so an OSM Quebec could not be recognized until the Canadians get their act together? [17:50] toffehoff: My feeling is not the restrict it to countries. [17:50] toffehoff: Leave that open. [17:50] karida: Well, I don't know if OSMF wants to deal with every tiny local chapter [17:50] seav: but no overlaps? [17:51] toffehoff: Overlaps would be a potential hell. [17:51] karida: if you tke countries, then there shouldn't be legal overlaps [17:51] seav: overlaps is a recognized problem in WMF [17:51] toffehoff: But some countries are rather large.... [17:51] karida: in population? or map features? [17:52] toffehoff: I had a discussion with someone of the USA [17:52] karida: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Local_chapter_FAQ tells LC are countries [17:53] seav: that's not quite exact [17:53] seav: there is a Wikimedia New York City [17:53] seav: that's the only local WMF chapter that isn't a country [17:53] toffehoff: If a region is big enough of somehow outstanding of the rest.... [17:54] toffehoff: Again, I would not restrict it. It would be logical, and probably the most common thing to do. [17:54] karida: I would restrict it to countries and then wait for others to come with really good arguments [17:55] seav: karida, that's workable [17:55] toffehoff: We can put it up for debate... [17:56] toffehoff: seav: is overlapping seen as a problem in WMF? [17:56] seav: yes, overlapping is a problem [17:56] seav: 1) people may get confused who officially represents wikimedia in a territory [17:57] toffehoff: That was also what I was thinking when I mentioned not to be in favor of overlap..... [17:57] karida: One interesting question would be: what if someone wants to start another LC of the same country? Just because one LC isn't open enough or whatever reason. Is the first LC always the winner? [17:57] seav: for WMF, yes [17:58] seav: first-come first-served [17:58] seav: if the LC is open enough for OSMF, then it's open enough [17:58] seav: no need for another LC [17:58] toffehoff: That can of course change during time.... [17:59] toffehoff: Would a yearly renewal (automaticly) of the agreement be an option? [17:59] karida: Can a LC lose it's status as official LC? Will there be a yearly review for example? [17:59] toffehoff: If it doesn't meet the requirements anymore. [18:00] toffehoff: There should be a clause in the agreement how to end the agreement. [18:01] seav: i think automatic renewal is the norm [18:01] seav: with exit clauses [18:01] toffehoff: Something like that. [18:02] toffehoff: So if there would be someone else wanting to start an LC in the same country there would be a way to handle it. [18:02] seav: seque: one problem: local-chapters is very quiet [18:03] seav: nobody really reacted to my email [18:03] seav: s/seque/segue/ [18:03] toffehoff: I noticed that too. [18:04] toffehoff: Maybe someone will react when we have some draft agreement [18:05] seav: hopefully [18:05] seav: so going back to the requirements... [18:05] toffehoff: That looks more final.... [18:05] seav: non-profit, membership-based, aligned with OSMF? [18:05] seav: agree? [18:05] seav: other additions? [18:06] karida: In the "Rules" on the wiki page there is also [18:06] karida: - have at least 20 members as "should have" [18:06] karida: Do you want to have "should have" requirements? [18:07] seav: nice to have, maybe [18:07] toffehoff: that actually is intended as "have a reasonable amount of members". [18:07] seav: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guidelines_for_future_chapters [18:08] seav: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters [18:08] karida: And: "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License;" ... so we can "steal" [18:08] seav: "The chapter must involve contributors to the Wikimedia projects." ---- > "The chapter must involve contributors to OpenStreetMap"? [18:09] karida: Both are actually requirements for OSMF Japan for example [18:09] karida: for their members [18:09] seav: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." ---> we discussed this the last meeting, right? [18:09] toffehoff: seav: yes [18:10] seav: karida, i disagree about requiring LC members to also be OSM contributors [18:10] seav: there *should* be contributors in the LC [18:10] seav: but not all members should be contributors [18:11] karida: Well, it also depends on how you define "contributor" [18:11] toffehoff: It should represent the community. [18:11] seav: contributor = has an OSM account [18:11] seav: (whether or not that account has edits) [18:11] seav: i am thinking of LC members that can just be plain downstream OSM data users [18:11] karida: That's a good definition and actually very easy to achieve [18:12] seav: they don't have an account but they have a stake in OSM [18:12] toffehoff: Do members have to be individuals or can also organisations become member of an LC? [18:13] seav: i'm not sure about orgs being members [18:13] karida: In Japan there is also corporate membership possible [18:13] karida: And FOSSGIS allows this as well [18:13] seav: i guess the LC can decide for itself [18:13] seav: "The chapter is geographically based/anchored in a legal jurisdiction." --> we can adopt this too [18:13] toffehoff: OK, but does the corporation also need to have an OSM account? [18:14] seav: "The mission of the organisation must be in line with the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation." --> "The mission of the organisation must be in line with the mission of the OpenStreetMap Foundation." [18:14] seav: as i said, i don't agree with requiring having an OSM account to be an LC member [18:15] karida: Well, I think it should be up to the LC anyway to decide that. [18:15] seav: hmmm, does OSMF require its members to have OSM accounts? [18:16] toffehoff: To my knowledge: no. [18:17] seav: ok [18:17] seav: then i guess the we leave it up to the LC as well [18:17] seav: so the requirement is that the LC should represent the local community or at least involve OSM contributors [18:18] seav: right? [18:18] toffehoff: The first. [18:18] karida: Does a local chapter represent the local community? [18:19] toffehoff: it should.... [18:19] karida: I thought it supports the local community for example [18:19] seav: well here's a question: [18:20] seav: if OSMF wanted to ask what the Japanese OSM community thinks of something, does it ask the Japan LC or does it ask the OSM contributors in Japan? [18:20] karida: It asks talk-ja [18:20] seav: in wikimedia, there's a strong distinction between the community and the LC [18:20] karida: The community is not the foundation IMO [18:21] seav: the Japanese Wikipedia editors != Wikimedia Japan [18:21] toffehoff: OK: the local chapter respresents the OSM project. [18:21] toffehoff: ? [18:22] seav: so the LC speaks for OSMF in the LC's territory? [18:22] seav: for wikimedia, WMF only represents itself worldwide [18:22] karida: They maybe represent the OSMF ... but the LC can be a legal entitiy for the community [18:23] toffehoff: being a legal entity for the community ... isn't that the same a representing the community? [18:24] toffehoff: If a newsagency in Japan would like to write about OSM. Who do they go to? [18:25] karida: Isnt' the first sentence on the LC wiki page good: "Local Chapters are proposed not-for-profit legal entities to be established within different territories around the world which can act as official local representatives of the Foundation when dealing with local government, business and media." [18:25] seav: I think the LC [18:25] seav: key phrase: "can act" [18:26] seav: it's not the same as "is" [18:26] karida: seav: exactly [18:26] toffehoff: meaning? [18:27] karida: there is no exclusive right of the LC to be the representative [18:27] karida: or legal entity [18:28] seav: the newsagency could also go to OSMF directly [18:28] seav: and the OSMF can redirect to the LC if it so chooses [18:28] karida: or ask a mapper community [18:29] seav: i guess the point is that the LC supports the community [18:29] karida: So LC are more "helper organisations" [18:29] seav: and not the community supporting the LC [18:29] toffehoff: ok [18:30] • toffehoff looking at the time. [18:30] karida: What says the board? [18:30] toffehoff: About what? [18:31] karida: Maybe good to hrear their opinions as well [18:31] karida: About requirements [18:31] toffehoff: Sure, but they've asked us to come up with a proposal. [18:31] seav: ah i see [18:31] karida: Or you prefer to make some draft and then let them submit +1 messages [18:31] seav: I guess I can cobble a wiki page stealing points from WMF [18:32] seav: [18:32] toffehoff: Something like that. [18:32] seav: and just mark those requirements that are up for debate [18:32] toffehoff: Was also going to do something like that for the agreement. [18:32] toffehoff: Why not have everything up for debate? [18:33] toffehoff: Like: this is what we came up with .... [18:33] seav: ok [18:35] toffehoff: seav: can you make such a wiki-page for the requirements? [18:35] seav: ok i will [18:36] seav: it's holy week and we have no work on thursday and friday... i can do it then [18:36] toffehoff: Thanks. [18:37] toffehoff: Somewhere as a subpage of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Local_chapter [18:38] seav: ok [18:38] seav: wrap-up? [18:38] toffehoff: lets' do. [18:38] toffehoff: seav: you're going to set up the requirements page. [18:38] toffehoff: I'm going to do the same for the agreement. [18:39] seav: ok [18:39] toffehoff: Next week or in two weeks? [18:39] seav: by next week [18:39] toffehoff: ok [18:39] karida: So I will then take a look and give comments [18:39] karida: Thanks! [18:39] toffehoff: Next meeting also next week then? [18:40] karida: Well, if there is something to discuss then ... just send some reminder on the list. [18:41] toffehoff: OK. will do. [18:41] toffehoff: Thanks you both!@ [18:42] seav: great!