Local Chapters Working Group/Meeting 2013-03-21



IRC nick Real name
Gerald/GLH Gerald Hasty
hbogner Hrvoje Bogner
pnorman Paul Norman
Hugo_H Hugo Holscher
mkl Mikel Maron
simonpoole Simon Poole


  • Welcome and Introductions (simonpoole, 21:04:32)
  • Election of chair, representative to the MT (simonpoole, 21:22:08)
    • AGREED: GLH is chair and MT representative (simonpoole, 21:30:28)
  • Work/action items for 2013 (simonpoole, 21:31:46)
  • Meeting schedule, Next Meeting (simonpoole, 21:58:51)


21:04:01 <simonpoole> #startmeeting
21:04:02 <local-meetbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 21 21:04:01 2013 UTC.  The chair is simonpoole. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:04:02 <local-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
21:04:32 <simonpoole> #topic welcome and introductions
21:04:33 <pnorman> greetings from Canada
21:04:49 <simonpoole> Welcome everybody
21:05:23 <simonpoole> I would suggest that I chair the meeting till we have got aroun to actually electing a chair.
21:05:23 <mkl> hey everyone. (and nice, hadn't seen meetbot before)
21:05:56 <mkl> sounds ok simonpoole
21:05:57 <simonpoole> I haven't used it before either ....
21:06:13 <hbogner> well you called the meeting you run it, it's fair
21:06:28 <hbogner> i'm new here so ...
21:06:31 <simonpoole> I apologize in advance for any typos, still have some problems reading.
21:08:12 <simonpoole> I would suggest that we "go around the table" in alphabetical nick-order :-) and introduce ourselves, please indicate any affilacion with an existing local group and why you are interested in the LCWG. Ok with everybody?
21:08:35 <Hugo_H> #agreed
21:08:45 <simonpoole> Then I would suggest that Gerald starts.
21:08:46 <hbogner> #agreed
21:08:53 <Gerald> Ok
21:10:45 <simonpoole> note it is probably better to kepp the lines short
21:11:09 <Gerald> I live in Layton Utah, just a stones throw from Martijn.  Have been a paid member of OSM for two years now.  I belive in the spirit of OSM very much and want to be involved in it's expansion.  As an aside, I am involved in emergency communications and use GIS often and am currently working on a OSM server for a private net.
21:12:44 <hbogner> Hrvoje Bogner from Zagreb, Croatia. Started mappind 2009. Joined OSMF this January. Run osm-hr.org with extracts and maps, ...
21:13:54 <Hugo_H> Hugo Hölscher, The Netherlands. Has not yet a local chapter, but I am talking with Henk Hoff already for 2 years to set something up. No progress so far, so this looks an opportunity to do so.
21:13:54 <hbogner> want to form a local organisation to find a away to get funds for a new server and if enough, for a tile cache, linux enthusiast, study at faculty of geodesy, over for now
21:14:25 <simonpoole> mkl?
21:14:26 <mkl> I'm Mikel. Based now in DC, so doing a lot with MappingDC, which is informal. Also member of OSM US Chapter. As well as supporter of other local groups like Map Kibera, India OSM community.
21:14:29 <Hugo_H> Active in NL since 2007 and also on holidays. No geo background at all, interested computer amateur
21:14:32 <mkl> To me, local chapters are important way to structure getting things done in the community; we already collaborate on the map in a federated way, and i think lot more can be done organizationally federated (rather than everything happening directly in OSMF). So I see the priorities as making a lightweight LC agreement. And building a strategy around support for building local chapters (better guides and materials, etc)
21:16:12 <mkl> ...
21:16:32 <simonpoole> pnorman?
21:16:56 <pnorman> I live in Vancouver, BC. OSMF and OSM-US member, DWG and MT member. Canada doesn't have a local chapter. I have a lot on my OSM plate, so I'm not sure how much time if any I'll be able to devote. I might also duck out today, running short on sleep
21:17:51 <simonpoole> I'm Simon, live in Switzerland and am a relative new comer to the project, I'm the current president of the Swiss OSM Association and a member of the OSMF board, as such I'm wearing two hats in this WG. From the OSMF side I'm trying to do some cleanup of stuff that has been dropped over the years (for example the LC contracts)....
21:19:13 <simonpoole> from the SOSM side I'm interested in some kind of formal agreement with the OSMF that on the one hand legalizes our use of OSMF intellectual property on the other hand we want to help promote OSM as much as possible.
21:19:48 <simonpoole> TomH are you participating or just here for any emergency debugging?
21:20:17 <simonpoole> ok debugging :-)
21:20:38 <Hugo_H> Looks like a com together from north America and Europe, no Asians?
21:21:03 <simonpoole> nobody showed any interest
21:21:19 <hbogner> i counted countries too
21:21:33 <simonpoole> but in general getting away from the Euro/USA focus would be a good thing
21:22:08 <simonpoole> #topic Election of chair, representative to the MT
21:22:16 <hbogner> it would be good, but their primary focus are hot activitied in those other areas
21:22:23 <GLH> Lost connection, came on another machine, SK
21:22:26 <hbogner> as i figure
21:22:29 <simonpoole> np
21:22:41 <simonpoole> ok Chair and MT representative
21:22:54 <hbogner> MT?
21:23:11 <simonpoole> management team
21:23:21 <mkl> I'm sure Indo and India and Philippines and Nepal would be interested, but perhaps they just want to know what to do :)
21:23:23 <hbogner> sorry didn't do my homework and recearch
21:23:34 <simonpoole> np
21:24:17 <Hugo_H> two roles combined in one person?
21:24:33 <simonpoole> chair is uspposed to run the meetings and in general produces the minutes, in a number of working groups he  represents the WG in the MT
21:24:49 <mkl> i'll take myself out of the running for Chair/MT Rep. I simply don't have enough time with my other voluntary positions. but I am definitely ready to participate in this WG.
21:25:00 <simonpoole> I would really like for somebody to volunteer that can do both
21:25:05 <hbogner> ok, just to say, i'm in over my head with work in next 6 months, but want to keep up with progress
21:25:17 <GLH> What is the expected time? GA
21:25:30 <simonpoole> but would volunteer for the chair position, but then the MT rep would have to be somebody else
21:26:12 <GLH> I will raise my hand and give it a try, GA
21:26:36 <simonpoole> the MT has a meeting every 2nd week I believe and our schedule is open
21:26:48 <simonpoole> GLH for both?
21:27:10 <pnorman> last (and next) MT meeting was Europe evening. not going to give a time because I can never figure out the time zones
21:27:19 <GLH> I think so.  Most of my time is open.  I have my own schedule. GA
21:27:28 <simonpoole> ok that would be good
21:27:42 <simonpoole> (as a note on the side the more new blood the better)
21:28:11 <Hugo_H> #agreed
21:28:16 <hbogner> #agreed
21:28:27 <simonpoole> #agreed
21:29:06 <simonpoole> everybody ok with Gerald as chair?
21:29:24 <mkl> #agreed
21:29:50 <simonpoole> pnorman?
21:30:28 <simonpoole> #agreed GLH is chair and MT representative
21:30:55 <GLH> Thank you for the trust. SK
21:31:22 <simonpoole> good, then I would suggest that we move to the next topic and will hand over to GLH in a second
21:31:25 <hbogner> ok, next
21:31:46 <simonpoole> #topic work/action items for 2013
21:32:15 <Hugo_H> do we have an objective for 2013?
21:32:30 <simonpoole> the mangement team is looking for a short plan for 2013 ...what we want to acheive, activities etc.
21:32:57 <GLH> What is the scope of our activity for this working group? SK
21:33:13 <Hugo_H> achieve is the first step, tan we can define the work and actions
21:33:19 <simonpoole> the LWG has produced something we can use as a template ... so I would suggest that we try to produce something over the next couple of weeks in e-mail
21:33:42 <mkl> Local Chapter Agreement seems top priority
21:33:50 <Hugo_H> yes, is OK
21:33:54 <hbogner> ok, what is needed to forma local chapter?
21:34:03 <simonpoole> FLH that is for us to define ... some things a re obvious (contracts etc) others are very fuzzy
21:34:16 <hbogner> oficial ngo just a group of people?
21:34:24 <simonpoole> goog question
21:34:41 <Hugo_H> depends also on the local legislation I assume
21:34:44 <simonpoole> I think that we probably can't get around having two levels
21:34:46 <hbogner> i am thinking of forming official ngo but to much paperwork
21:34:54 <mkl> And I also suggest we look at ways to support the creation of new local chapters (materials, good guides, localosm.org minisite) ... things like that
21:35:02 <hbogner> mabye over another organization is ok too?
21:35:13 <simonpoole> requiring formal incorporation from day one is probabyl too much
21:35:17 <Hugo_H> We neeed to think about rules of engeagement between OSMF and the local chapters and between local chapters
21:35:22 <mkl> osmf couldn't have a legal agreement with a non-entity though
21:35:25 <simonpoole> well we have FOSSGIS as an example
21:36:00 <mkl> why couldn't a govt form a local chapter?
21:36:14 <mkl> or a group form as an llc, since that registration is much easier
21:36:25 <Hugo_H> llc?
21:36:54 <mkl> sorry, limited liability company. its US thing. basicly a simply business registration
21:37:07 <simonpoole> imho I don't think we need to prescribe exactlly how incorporation should happen
21:37:14 <pnorman> what legal form a local chapter takes is going to vary from country to country
21:37:16 <GLH> In the US, if no monies are involved then an organization does not need incorporation, but can be an informal organization.  Should that be one level?  What about other jurisdictions?
21:37:42 <Hugo_H> tnx,  for NL the probable form is a foundation
21:38:19 <Hugo_H> has to do with objectives, no objective for profit, less tax hassle
21:38:41 <simonpoole> in Switzerland we have an association which is a formal incorporation form, currently we are not registered (that is legally only necessary from a certain size) but it is a forma legal entity
21:39:02 <hbogner> could it be a coperation with non goverment organization that is not osm specific, but linux and opens ource based?
21:39:05 <simonpoole> in the end as mkl wrote, we would be looking for a body we could sign a contract with
21:39:47 <simonpoole> I perosnally would think that it would have to have a substantial amount of OSM related activities
21:39:54 <Hugo_H> seems very country specific, even accross Europe
21:40:01 <simonpoole> sure
21:40:30 <simonpoole> thats why it won't be possible to nail it down to just one way of doing things
21:40:32 <hbogner> simonpoole, ubuntu ngo for croatia could that work?
21:40:37 <GLH> A recomendation was made for two levels, one could be formal and the other informal, with different rules for each.  We need to help new comers to get organized. SK\
21:41:23 <hbogner> i can sign officialy as that ngo president, and act as part of non official team
21:41:32 <simonpoole> yes I was thinking a long such lines so that you could get some kind of "recognition" as a 5 person group with the expectation that you would grow in to something more formal
21:41:35 <Hugo_H> the informal entity, does that not already exist
21:41:59 <mkl> there's no "recognition"
21:42:15 <mkl> i guess an informal level would have less rights?
21:42:16 <simonpoole> well we don't even list any chapter on the foundation website
21:42:38 <simonpoole> well that is up to us to work out
21:42:40 <mkl> not that we've discussed what those rights are
21:42:47 <GLH> There are some like in Utah, but we should be helpful and encourage others to start up. SK
21:42:57 <hbogner> ok, we are 10+ and could be formal after 6+ months when this mess at work/faculty passes
21:43:36 <Hugo_H> ANy idea how germany is organised, they are very big
21:43:47 <hbogner> :D
21:43:51 <simonpoole> I have to say my main concern is a group registering an openstreetmap domain and incorporating with openstreetmap something and then google or however comes along and takes control
21:44:00 <simonpoole> Germany is FOSSGIS
21:44:10 <simonpoole> so they do more than OSM
21:44:37 <hbogner> simonpoole, didn't get that part with ggole taking over?
21:44:57 <Hugo_H> NL could do something similar with OSGEO, but henk and I decided against that, to keep it clear
21:45:12 <simonpoole> in my negative scneario we need something that will revoke the right to use openstreetmap IP in such situations (and I've been through something along such lines in a different context before)
21:45:49 <mkl> osmf needs that ability. but how much does a violation need to be spelled out?
21:46:16 <hbogner> there is evena a plan to form OSGEO-hr with wider interests, mabe that's better than just osm ngo??
21:46:19 <simonpoole> hbogner we currently have a lot of chapters for exampel the French registering openstreetmap.fr that use the trademarks etc. without a corresponding contract
21:46:31 <mkl> wouldn't they need to support the mission and goals of OSMF?
21:46:43 <hbogner> ahaa
21:46:55 <simonpoole> mkl: in general you just refer to change of control events, and inactivity would belong in there too
21:47:49 <simonpoole> anyway I think it is clear getting that done this year is likely our top priority, what about other stuff?
21:48:52 <mkl> And I also suggest we look at ways to support the creation of new local chapters (materials, good guides, localosm.org minisite), and help existing chapters do more ... things like that
21:48:53 <simonpoole> do we want to actively help local groups start up or do we want to wait till there is some local interest? what kind of supprot should we give?
21:49:31 <mkl> i don't think it's our place to actively start groups. but if there is some local interest, we can make it a lot easier for them.
21:50:05 <Hugo_H> we could describe what goals we expect from a local chapterand how we expect to interact with OSMF
21:50:12 <hbogner> ok, promoting osm, croatia activities: we have bussiness card size flyers on osm and osm-hr, spreading them on conferences, we have a month to write paper for a geodesy magzine on editing and using osm data
21:51:12 <hbogner> i need to change static web page and create cms so more people can participate, we have facebook page where we promote osm
21:51:47 <mkl> there's a lot of fliers that have been made. would be good to select some of the best for reuse/translation. github might be a good home for this
21:51:49 <Hugo_H> does that also include monitoring of violations of the license agreement and how that is communicated to OSMF?
21:51:58 <hbogner> i'll try to speak to dean of my faculty to let us hold lectures on osm to students and faculty staff, its faculty of geodesy, spatial data, ...
21:52:04 <simonpoole> what about cooperation with other local groups, neighbouring countries?
21:52:24 <Hugo_H> do we want local chapters to be able to close locally contracts representing OSMF?
21:52:40 <hbogner> Hugo_H, uh, nice point, finding pages that use osm data, that have atribution, that dont have atribution....
21:53:14 <simonpoole> Hugo_H we were discussing this in the board yesterday, if possible I think the more dispute resolution that can be done at a local level the better
21:53:27 <Hugo_H> :(we lost our chair
21:53:32 <mkl> those are all good experiences, like local university lectures, to share with others. like a playbook of ideas for promotion
21:54:18 <simonpoole> GLH?
21:54:28 <GLH> Let's inject another thought.  Do we want to treat interested local companies or uiviersity clubs as local organizations? GA
21:54:36 <mkl> yea, but license agreement discussions can be tricky. i think that's some place where we need good coordination/oversight with the OSMF
21:55:04 <GLH> I think that is what this group is about. SK
21:55:54 <simonpoole> GLH I think that such orgs can easily become members of the local chapters
21:56:19 <Hugo_H> We also need to think about the influence OSMF can have. Too much could render OSMF liable for local misoperations
21:56:31 <GLH> Or they become a local chapter, like school clubs? SK
21:56:55 <simonpoole> but I would be some what wary of having orgs as chapters that are not aligned with what we do (FOSSGIS other activities are naturally nicely complentary to OSM)
21:57:45 <simonpoole> GLH I didn't say so at the beginning, but I would suggest limiting the meetings to an hour
21:58:10 <mkl> agreed
21:58:13 <simonpoole> I think we have a nice collection of topics that we can work through
21:58:14 <GLH> What OSMF should be is a central point of contact and direction without legal imdemdenty.
21:58:31 <mkl> when's the next meeting?
21:58:51 <simonpoole> #topic Meeting schedule, Next Meeting
21:59:01 <hbogner> one question, when i go to talk to the dean, can i represent my self as an official osmf member? they are birocrats(or how it's spelled), they like fancy names
21:59:13 <GLH> To determain the next meeting, we should do as we did for this one, each of us select that time we are available. SK
21:59:33 <Hugo_H> use doodle again for  in 2 weeks time?
21:59:52 <mkl> hbogner: that's maybe another question entirely. osmf membership has no membership rights or code of conduct
22:00:08 <GLH> At this point OSFM need to give us office recogniction and we need member ship in order to represent OSFM. SK
22:00:28 <simonpoole> roughyl every 2 weeks would be good for me, I'll add everybody to the local@osmfoundation.org mailing list and fix the page
22:00:51 <GLH> I liked usiing doodle. SK
22:00:53 <mkl> cool, i'm off to the pub. thanks everyone!
22:01:09 <simonpoole> ok
22:01:18 <hbogner> ok, i most likely wont make it in 2 week's or maybe even 4, but will try to read the minutes
22:01:37 <GLH> Simon, email me. GA
22:01:47 <Hugo_H> #agreed
22:01:55 <simonpoole> then I suggest we close the meeting, GLH I'll give you pointers to the meetbot docs etc per e-mail
22:02:00 <Hugo_H> cu Hugo
22:02:16 <simonpoole> #endmeeting