Working Group Minutes/EWG 2013-08-12

From OpenStreetMap Foundation

Attendees

IRC nick Real name
apmon Kai Krueger
pnorman Paul Norman
tmcw Tom MacWright
TomH Tom Hughes
zere Matt Amos

Summary

  • Welcome branch
    • Is a UX improvement branch for signup flow (used to also be a general "welcome / info" type page, but the use-cases have diverged).
    • Consensus was that it's ready to merge.
    • Lots of new copy needs to be translated - and it would be better to get at least major languages in before it goes live.
      • ACTION: apmon to do German.
      • ACTION: zere to take to other channels / list to get help for other languages.

IRC Log

17:00:23 <zere> welcome EWGers :-)
17:00:50 <zere> minutes of the last couple of meetings, one of which i failed to get around to last time: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/EWG_2013-07-29 and http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/EWG_2013-08-05
17:01:10 <zere> as always, please let me know if anything needs changing in them.
17:03:31 <TomH> can I put the "welcome" branch on the agenda - ie if people are happy for us to merge it or whether we want CWG or LWG or anybody to look at it?
17:03:31 <zere> i have no items requested for the agenda, and nothing carried over from last meeting.
17:03:43 <zere> sure
17:03:50 <zere> #topic welcome branch
17:04:10 <zere> i haven't been keeping up to date with that one - what's the major changes on that branch?
17:04:45 <TomH> alters the signup flow
17:05:28 <TomH> mostly it just improves the UI and stuff but the big change is that most of the intro text in the email is moved to a new welcome page shown when you confirm the account
17:05:45 <TomH> so there are questions around that messaging
17:05:48 <zere> if anything has changed w.r.t display of legal information / CTs, then it might be good to have it looked at by LWG, just to be on the safe side.
17:06:22 <TomH> the CTs are shown the same as before basically - just cosmetic changes to the screen
17:06:48 <TomH> http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome is the welcome screen though you'll have to signup/login to see it
17:07:09 <zere> in that case, i don't think it's necessary. unless you think it would benefit from their feedback?
17:07:48 <TomH> no I guess CWG is more likely around the messaging on the welcome page?
17:07:55 <pnorman> It was in my summary two times in a row, I think it's had a wide airing
17:08:30 <zere> cool. i guess anyone who's interested has had a chance to jump in already.
17:09:03 <zere> perhaps we can do a quick show of hands (+1 for merge, -1 for more review)?
17:09:28 <zere> apmon: fyi - this is about the welcome rails_port branch and whether it's ready for merge.
17:09:32 <pnorman> I mean, people will complain, but there are no outstanding issues or complaints
17:09:35 <pnorman> +1 for merge
17:09:51 <TomH> I'm +1
17:09:57 <tmcw> (+1 from me as well, though I can't claim to be unbiased)
17:11:26 <zere> i guess that's unanimous support, then :-)
17:12:48 <apmon> +1 from me as well, although I'd be in favour of adding more detail and links to the pages
17:13:05 <apmon> TomH: Do you have a copy of the signup text easily ready?
17:13:31 <pnorman> pull request should have everything in screenshots
17:14:49 <pnorman> apmon: do you mean the pre-signup or post-signup?
17:15:35 <apmon> The email sent on signup
17:15:37 <TomH> just signup on the test site and you will see the whole flow
17:15:51 <apmon> if information has moved from the email to the website, it would be good to see both
17:16:13 <apmon> btw, this would be a good candidate for getting in translations ahead of making it live
17:16:19 <pnorman> pre-signup is http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/user/new
17:16:57 <TomH> apmon: well except we don't have a way to do that
17:17:41 <apmon> Can you push things to master, then contact sibrand to tell him that a significant merge has occured and not immediately make it "live"?
17:18:21 <TomH> well yes, but that leaves me blocked and unabe to make any changes to the site for several weeks
17:18:27 <apmon> The time you can hold off live vs master might not be sufficient to actually get translations in, but at least it would help shorted the time
17:19:14 <TomH> I can certainly ask siebrand to do an extra pull to transwiki
17:19:31 <TomH> but delaying long enough to anything back would be problemati
17:19:34 <apmon> It needs at least two translatewiki "update cycles", but if the first one could happen fairly immediately, then the first translations would hopefully be in in about a week.
17:20:14 <apmon> so if you could then delay live for a couple of days if there isn't anything critical, that would help alot
17:21:08 <zere> are there many changes to the copy?
17:21:49 <pnorman> http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome is entirely new see https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/98601/857287/0b08ada8-f54e-11e2-9416-5e57118cb02f.png
17:21:50 <TomH> yes
17:22:13 <apmon> and given that it is the first things new users will see, it is very prominent
17:22:40 <zere> pnorman: you say "entirely new", but we must already have translations for "email address", "display name", "sign up", etc...
17:24:24 <TomH> not on their own we don't
17:24:31 <apmon> It makes it even more strange, if 90% of text is in english and then individual words in a different language
17:24:33 <TomH> and anyway you can't just glue together words like that
17:24:43 <TomH> yes apmon I do understand ad I'll see what I can do
17:24:51 <apmon> great, thanks
17:25:15 <apmon> the comment was in response to zere saying that some parts are already translated
17:26:10 <zere> huh... i wasn't suggesting gluing anything together
17:26:34 <zere> what i meant was that the stuff on the lhs of the welcome page is the same as the stuff on the user/new page on the current site
17:26:54 <zere> the headings above the input boxes, the grey explanatory text below, etc...
17:28:02 <pnorman> well yes, the welcome page is in the same layout as the rest of the website
17:28:08 <zere> so it seems reasonable that we would already have translations for those bits, and just be missing translations for the new bits - like the rhs column.
17:28:30 <TomH> well yes and that is what will happen
17:28:41 <TomH> the sidebar comes from the layout and will be translated as normal
17:28:49 <zere> pnorman: sorry, again, i didn't mean the side-bar - i meant the left column of the content
17:29:30 <TomH> which pae is this? the wlcome page doesn't have a left column with that content?
17:30:48 <apmon> zere: Do you mean the actual signup form? I.e. where you enter the info?
17:31:17 <TomH> well I expect that is using the same prompts as before?
17:31:37 <pnorman> yes
17:31:50 <TomH> add ?locale=de to the url if you want to check
17:33:53 <apmon> Yes, so on the signup form, the left (old) form is translated and the new "Freee and editable" info is obviously not
17:34:45 <apmon> Oh, btw, the signup form now has issues with narrow window sizes.
17:34:57 <zere> apmon, pnorman: the content on the LHS in the red boxes here: http://i.imgur.com/LzDWnW6.png
17:35:34 <pnorman> zere: but that's not /welcome!
17:35:48 <apmon> it is part of the welcome branch we are talking about
17:36:30 <zere> hah, well. it's the page i got when i visited the link TomH posted... i guess i should have been paying more attention when he said i needed to be logged in.
17:37:01 <pnorman> my comment that /welcome is entirely new. in any case, we're drifting off point, regardless of which page we're talking about, there's substantial new copy that doesn't yet have translations
17:38:36 <TomH> apmon: aren't those forms on the new responsive grid? if small screens are a problm then say so on the PR!
17:39:14 <zere> hmmm, so when the PR says "a place where third party data consumers like Foursquare, MapBox, or Craigslist can direct users who have spotted a problem with the map and want to get started fixing it"... it actually isn't, because you need to sign in to see it?
17:39:46 <TomH> you didn't need to originally, so I think that is new...
17:40:00 <TomH> but I thought this was separate to the landing page for third parties thing?
17:40:13 <apmon> TomH: Will do
17:40:37 <pnorman> zere: the discussion ended up with limiting the scope somewhat
17:41:21 <pnorman> TomH: /welcome requires signup; you can use ******//****** for http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome
17:45:11 <zere> wut, wut? no relations under "basic terms for mapping"? ;-)
17:46:30 <zere> if the textual change is primarily on that /welcome page and some small bits in the signup process, perhaps canvassing for translations before the merge would work?
17:47:07 <TomH> we have no way to take them is the problem
17:49:27 <zere> TomH: https://github.com/osmlab/openstreetmap-website/blob/welcome-2/config/locales/en.yml#L1152 - what's wrong with putting them in the yml files?
17:50:59 <TomH> well firstly the problem of any would be translators having to try and diff two massive yaml files to work ut what is needed
17:51:11 <TomH> and the the problem of me having to field a zillion teeny weeny pulls
17:51:21 <zere> isn't welcome_page: new?
17:51:42 <TomH> probably
17:51:46 <TomH> as probably are other things
17:52:06 <zere> all i meant was that there's a tree of YML there which (afaik) has no translations. so merging that in would fix some large fraction of the missing translations.
17:52:40 <TomH> true
17:52:57 <TomH> still a pain to try and recruit translators outside the normal system and then merge the results
17:54:10 <zere> sure. i just thought it might help. if you prefer figuring something out with siebrand, and leaving master alone while that works itself out - you probably know best.
17:54:43 <TomH> well if somebody has a plan for how to get some direct translations I'm not going to object
17:55:12 <apmon_> We can probably send out a email to announce@
17:55:19 <apmon_> I can also do the translation for german
17:55:43 <zere> i don't think it's worth it for announce@ - talk@, talk-${LANG}@, sure.
17:55:50 <apmon_> and if we can find peole for french, russian, spanish and a couple of the other top languages that would cover a hughe proportion
17:56:11 <apmon_> isn't announce ment for reaching all of the local language lists?
17:56:51 <pnorman> my thoughts are we're probably not going to solve the issue of translations pre-merge this week. for this, perhaps do direct translations for fr, de, ru of the welcome_page tree and defer a wider discussion until later?
17:57:43 <zere> announce@ is a low-volume list for large announcements, so we can keep in touch with people who are put off by the level of noise on talk/talk-language. i don't think "could we get some help with some translations" is appropriate, as it's likely to be interpreted as noise.
17:58:06 <apmon_> Wasn't there a list somewhere for these kind of things?
17:58:16 <pnorman> Is it possible to merge in the en.yml changes first and then after $TIME merge in the rest of the changes?
17:58:29 <apmon_> e.g. to translate blog posts or other things that need to go out to the local language groups?
17:58:49 <zere> only if the en.yml only *adds* new keys, and doesn't re-purpose existing ones.
18:06:04 <zere> apmon_: it appears that there used to be a mailing list, but apparently was shut down. it's not clear whether CWG requests translations for blog posts specifically, or people contribute them crowd-source-fashion.
18:06:42 <zere> i'm sure for one-off stuff we know enough german, french, russian, japanese and spanish speakers to do it.
18:08:09 <apmon_> yes, we should know enough people to get the most important languages done.
18:08:53 <zere> i'm sure TomH would be glad of some... any volunteers to reach out for various languages?
18:09:03 <zere> i think apmon_ already volunteered to do german, right?
18:10:19 <apmon_> yes, and I'll probably post it to the german forums or list to get feedback on it.
18:10:28 <zere> awesome, thanks.
18:10:36 <zere> do we have any volunteers to take other languages?
18:10:48 <pnorman> I could do en_ca, eh?
18:12:56 <zere> any volunteers for french, russian, japanese or spanish?
18:13:24 <zere> (or indeed any other languages; dutch, italian, etc...)
18:14:37 <apmon_> try announcing it on #osm and see if you can find volunteers
18:14:48 * pnorman is hungry, so about to head for breakfast
18:14:51 <zere> yup. fair enough.
18:15:05 <zere> thanks to everyone for coming! see you next week.