Working Group Minutes/MWG 2019-01-14

From OpenStreetMap Foundation


  • Paul Norman (pnorman)
  • Michael Spreng (datendelphin)
  • Guillaume Rischard (Stereo)
  • Jonathan Witcoski (jonwit)
  • Steve Friedl (SJFriedl)
  • Thomas Barris (Thomas___)
  • Joost Schouppe (joost_schouppe[m])

Open issues

Minutes of last meeting

Minutes of the previous meeting on 26 November 2018 were unanimously approved.

Report on Unusual Membership Signups

MWG will release the report about the unusual signups on Thursday, 17 January 2019 after the board meeting if the board doesn't discuss it, or on the 26 January 2019 otherwise. Voted with 1 abstain and 4 in favour. It was reconfirmed after joost_schouppe[m] joined later and re-emphasised that the report would only be released after the OSMF board meeting on Thursday, 17 January 2019 if the board has nothing to add.

Fee Waiver

The procedures for the can't-Paypal is running fine but could be improved further for the can't-afford. Thomas___ to ask Pascal nice if he can include Active Mapper states as per Contributor Terms on hdyc. datendelphin to think about segregating the fee waiver form into can't-Paypal and can't-afford.


pnorman suggested a wiki for MWG. A short discussion on Wiki vs Wordpress followed. pnorman will open a ticket with the request for a Wiki.


pnorman plans to schedule a training.

Ideas from the French Community

Moved to next meeting. Stereo to prepare a list of the ideas and email them to MWG.


  • Thanking Heather as she has has recently resigned from MWG was unanimously agreed.
  • pnorman reminded anyone to sign a NDA and send it over to Dorothea
  • MWG stopped subscribing people to the OSMF mailing list when they became members and instead directed them to self-subscribe. It seems to work, new subscriptions are seen quite regularly. It was unanimously accepted to keep this new mode of operation. People are informed by the welcome message about the mailing list and that they have to subscribe themself.

19:59:33  *                  pnorman waves
19:59:36                datendelphin Hi
20:00:09                     Thomas_ Hi
20:00:28                      Stere0 Hello!
20:00:34                datendelphin nice, already three
20:00:39                datendelphin four!
20:01:06                datendelphin Did someone make an agenda? or just as we go
20:01:42                      Stereo I had a very vague one in my email: 
20:02:09                      Stereo Lots of things happening right now: the GlobalLogic report, the fee waiver, the OTRS switch, the ideas we got from the French community, the new members, members leaving us, and I’m sure I’m forgetting a few things.
20:02:29                      Stereo Let's wait a few minutes for everyone to appear
20:02:59                     pnorman NDAs, arranging OTRS training with the new people
20:03:07                datendelphin I would like to add administration of osmf-talk to the list. Members being required to sign up themselves
20:03:49                      jonwit hello everyone, jonathan reporting in
20:04:09                      Stereo SJFriedl said he was going to be there, I hope he wasn't eaten by a grue
20:04:22                      Stereo Hi jonwit!
20:04:46                      Stereo Glad you could make it, joost_schouppe[m] 
20:04:58                      Stereo Or ghost of Joost
20:05:31                      Stereo Should we wait five more minutes for SJFriedl?
20:07:55                      Stereo So jonwit the agenda so far is: the GlobalLogic report, the fee waiver, the OTRS switch and arranging OTRS training with the new people, the ideas we got from the French community, the new members, members leaving us, NDAs
20:08:44                      Stereo I just rang SJFriedl and he either said he was in a meeting or said he was in this meeting. In any case, we should start :)
20:09:05                      Stereo Who's presiding?
20:09:18                datendelphin The one who is asking
20:09:29                      Stereo Serves me right :)
20:09:33                datendelphin Thank you :)

[Closed session: Report on Unusual Membership Signups - The MWG discussed the report and how to approach the OSMF board and the memmbership]

20:17:51                      Stereo So: should we approve the last minutes?
20:17:59                      Stereo pnorman_: perfect
20:18:11                      Stereo Hi again Thomas___! Did you miss what we just wrote?
20:18:25                   Thomas___ no, just a second or so
20:18:38                      Stereo otherwise:
20:18:43                   Thomas___ thnaks
20:19:00                    SJFriedl ok, I remember the meeting and approve the minutes.
20:19:14                      Stereo We're voting on approving the last minutes. Please say yes/no/abstain.
20:19:15                      jonwit i approve the minutes as well
20:19:18                      Stereo I vote yes.
20:19:19                      jonwit yes
20:19:40                    pnorman_ +1
20:19:41                      Stereo Just in case, they're here:
20:19:46                datendelphin yes
20:19:56                      Stereo Unanimously approved then. Thank you.

[Closed session: Report on Unusual Membership Signups - The MWG discussed the report and how to approach the OSMF board and the memmbership]

20:47:11                      Stereo Fee waiver. It's a pity Joost is not there.
20:48:00                datendelphin I was on the same side all along. Thanks for your extensive work
20:48:36                      Stereo The procedure for the can't-Paypal people is running pretty smoothly; the one for the can't-afford is maybe still a bit hazy. I understand Joost intends to work on clarifying it, but I could be wrong.
20:49:18                datendelphin We don't have a large back log if I interpret otrs correctly?
20:49:21                     pnorman I did a cleanup of the page now that some of the reply texts are in OTRS, but I *think* almost everything is documented. It's just hard to find on the page.
20:49:56                     pnorman The only backlog I saw a few days ago was stuff waiting on a reply from the applicant to confirm accounts
20:50:31                      Stereo pnorman: you suggested a wiki for MWG. We could also split the thing up in sub-pages, either on Wordpress or a wiki.
20:51:00                      Stereo Wordpress also keeps revisions, and it means no extra infrastructure to deal with
20:51:05                     pnorman I'd like a wiki partially because it's more familiar from other WGs, but it also has functionality that's much easier to use like files for reports
20:51:20                      Stereo Files for reports?
20:51:37                     pnorman Like the recent report, we don't have it up anywhere on our internal stuff
20:51:40                      Stereo Oh, to just be able to throw files on it, and they're private?
20:51:44                      Stereo Right
20:52:02                datendelphin wordpress can handle files as well, no problem
20:52:03                     pnorman There's no additional infrastructure for a wiki, several WGs have one already
20:52:17                      Stereo How much work would it be? We ask Tom to spin up another instance, and copy-paste the procedures over?
20:52:21                datendelphin but I'm fine with a wiki as well.
20:52:26                      Stereo Can WordPress handle permissions on files?
20:53:00                      Stereo Yeah, I'm not religious one way or the other. If someone prefers one over the other, that's fine with me.
20:53:22                     pnorman I'll open a ticket with the request then
20:53:53                      Stereo But back to the fee waivers: are there any other comments? datendelphin you handled a few too and wrote the procedures?
20:55:04                      Stereo I had one corner case where the person had no text AND the osm nickname wasn't valid, but that's easy to deal with through copy-paste. I don't think we ever heard back from that person either.
20:55:28                datendelphin I'm not sure about permissions on files in wordpress.
20:55:51                datendelphin Yes I handled a few and had not many problems
20:55:55                      Stereo I wonder if, for the can't-paypal form, we could have a limited set of countries in the country pop-up menu. In any case, I can add an explanation below it.
20:56:43                datendelphin The form is not so flexible that you could switch fields as a reaction to a radio button
20:56:51                      Stereo I'm not really sure how many fee waiver members we have. If someone feels like it, I'm sure a report would be interesting.
20:57:01                      Stereo Yeah, it seems to be a CiviCRM limitation.
20:57:16                     pnorman If the form doesn't allow that, should we split the form?
20:57:43                      Stereo I'm not sure we can limit the countries in a split form either.
20:58:22                      Stereo The procedures mention that we should ask Pascal to show Active Mapper states on hdyc. Has anyone asked him? datendelphin?
20:58:30                      Stereo *status
20:58:37                     pnorman I haven't. We could use an issue tracker for these kinds of things
20:58:56                datendelphin Stereo: we can change the country field to a dropdown list
20:59:03                datendelphin so a split form would work
20:59:34                datendelphin I havn't asked Pascal
21:00:04                      Stereo Ah, and we can build our own dropdown list?
21:00:05                   Thomas___ I can do this
21:00:08                      Stereo It's currently a hybrid
21:00:15                   Thomas___ asking Pascal
21:00:18                      Stereo Thomas___: the civicrm hacking or Pascal
21:00:22                      Stereo Perfect
21:00:24                      Stereo Thank you
21:01:14                datendelphin sure, the form just does as it is told. No magic involved.
21:01:29                      Stereo datendelphin: will you split the civicrm forms?
21:02:21                datendelphin yes, but how to do the user experience?
21:02:54                datendelphin I mean I can't just split it. We need maybe a landing page? Or link two pages? But we need to explain which form to go to
21:03:04                      Stereo If you can't paypal, fill out the form <a>here</a>. Otherwise if you can't afford, fill out <a>there</a>?
21:03:19                datendelphin That is a lot harder than the form itself
21:03:51                      Stereo Two separate pages could also work.
21:03:54                datendelphin That sentence might be clear to us, but not someone who might not even be aware what paypal is
21:04:07                      Stereo You're right
21:04:33                      Stereo Can we let you decide, and move on to the next point on the agenda?
21:05:12                datendelphin yes
21:05:17                      Stereo Thank you.
21:05:35                      Stereo Next up is OTRS, feedback on the switch and training for new people
21:06:03  *                 SJFriedl has still not gotten into this at all, will need some training and a login. I my updated NDA should be on file.
21:06:11                      Stereo I'd be happy to attend the training too actually, I've just been using whatever seems to make sense
21:06:18                     pnorman Training would be me going over stuff
21:06:52                    SJFriedl however you think is best I'm ok with. pnorman and I share a timezone, I think.
21:06:57                      Stereo Like watching someone play tetris on twitch :)
21:07:31                      Stereo I suppose jonwit and Thomas___ might also be interested
21:07:42                      Stereo Or actually it could be recorded and uploaded to our wiki
21:08:27                   Thomas___ yes, I am
21:08:35                      Stereo pnorman: could you Doodle a few dates?
21:08:43                     pnorman Ya
21:08:57                      Stereo I'm also not sure what we need to to to get everyone an account - ask TomH?
21:09:08                     pnorman No, I can set them up
21:10:50                      Stereo Any feedback or questions from those of us who have played with OTRS?
21:11:15                      Stereo Otherwise I'd move on to the French ideas if that's ok
21:11:44                      Stereo So during [the signup matter discussed earlier], as you know, we interacted a lot with the French community
21:12:36                      Stereo We got a lot of interesting feedback from them.
21:13:45                      Stereo Since [the signup matter discussed earlier] is still ongoing, maybe it's better if we discuss this next time, but I think they're very good ideas, and I'll prepare a list of the ideas and email them to mwg.
21:14:29                    SJFriedl I agree with that; hard to have that conversation right now.
21:14:45                      Stereo And since you're all very quiet, I'll move on to the next point :)
21:15:18                datendelphin I'm looking forward to the ideas. I skimmed the mails
21:15:46                datendelphin please move on
21:15:48                      Stereo I would first of all like to re-welcome our new members. It's a pity jonwit had to leave so early. Thomas___ how are you settling in?
21:16:18                    SJFriedl welcome welcome!
21:16:20                   Thomas___ I feel a bit useless as I have not done anything...expect voted with yes today :)
21:16:40                      Stereo That's what most people begin with :)
21:16:56                   Thomas___ hope so :)
21:17:37                      Stereo You've managed to access civicrm, the mwg procedures, the mailing list?
21:17:46                      Stereo Do you have an OTRS account already?
21:17:55                   Thomas___ only OTRS yet
21:18:12                      Stereo I'll see if I can create a wordpress account for you
21:18:22                datendelphin Stereo: I'll do that tomorrow
21:18:27                      Stereo Cool, thanks datendelphin 
21:18:47                datendelphin We agreed to meet tomorrow and I show Thomas___ a few things
21:19:09                      Stereo Don't let him talk you into hacking civicrm, Thomas :)
21:19:22                datendelphin No producing statistics
21:19:29                      Stereo Oh great :)
21:19:47                      Stereo datendelphin: are you coming to the Hackwochenende? I wanted to work on that maybe.
21:19:53                   Thomas___ I can not hack anything but I like statistics
21:21:15                      Stereo Yeah, I like your diary posts. 
21:21:22                      Stereo ( if anyone is interested)
21:21:36                datendelphin I havn't decided yet.
21:22:05                      Stereo Then, Heather has recently resigned from MWG
21:22:28                      Stereo Do we want to formally as MWG thank her for what she's done?
21:22:56                     pnorman Yes. We should also find out if Zverik (Ilya) wants to remain a member since he's been inactive on the WG.
21:23:12                      Stereo He's been very very quiet lately. Hope he's ok.
21:23:27                datendelphin I thought about it. could be seen as ironic. Maybe better to wish her the best for osmf secretary?
21:23:50                datendelphin I talked to Zverik at SotM and he said he wants to remain in MWG
21:24:00                datendelphin but maybe it is time to as again.
21:25:03                      Stereo Move to vote to wish Heather the best as secretary?
21:25:08                    SJFriedl +1
21:25:13                     pnorman =1
21:25:15                     pnorman +1
21:25:16                   Thomas___ +1
21:25:26                datendelphin yes
21:25:49                    SJFriedl I'll include that in my note to the board with the other thing.
21:26:03                      Stereo Thank you. +1 from me too.
21:26:14                      Stereo Unanimously agreed then.
21:26:29                      Stereo Last point on the agenda, NDAs. Over to you pnorman 
21:27:56                     pnorman If anyone needs to sign a NDA, fill out, take pictures or scan, and send it to dorothea
21:29:23                    SJFriedl should we have a note in the wiki that members of this WG have NDA on file? Or is that not relevant?
21:29:42           joost_schouppe[m] Still catching up (I was in fact in the actual jungle). This is on the agenda for the closed portion of the board meeting, so not public knowledge. Now telling the board that you'll release right after the meeting would be seen as rather unfriendly.
21:29:44                      Stereo Do we know who hasn't signed yet?
21:30:04                    SJFriedl We're not.  It will be 26 Jan.
21:30:32                      Stereo we would only release after the meeting if the board has nothing to add.
21:30:41                      Stereo Which I really doubt would happen.
21:31:09                      Stereo I'd be fine leaving that bit out, actually.
21:31:33                datendelphin let's make it simpler and just assume the board discusses this in the closed  session, and only mention the 26th
21:31:37                    SJFriedl Yes.
21:32:21                      Stereo Yes
21:32:37                    SJFriedl thank you joost_schouppe[m] for confirming it's on the agenda.
21:32:38                      Stereo Thomas___: ?
21:32:49                   Thomas___ yes, sorry
21:33:00                      Stereo pnorman: I'm assuming abstain? :)
21:33:04                     pnorman yes
21:33:13                      Stereo Now what does that mean? :p
21:33:24                     pnorman Abstain
21:33:37                      Stereo joost_schouppe[m]: what about you?
21:34:05                      Stereo He's probably still reading the chat above
21:34:35                   Thomas___ Tobias, the new board member just wrote in the forum about it "The Membership Working Group has decided to follow up on the motivation of the new members. The board is aware of the topic, but - even if I would like to say more - that is unfortunately not yet really ripe."
21:34:47                      Stereo I've told Joost privately, but I think he'd be a good person to talk to GlobalLogic.
21:35:16                      Stereo Oh, where?
21:35:26                   Thomas___ german
21:35:33                   Thomas___ english
21:35:42                      Stereo It's encrypted then, we're safe :)
21:36:11                datendelphin German is a language, not an encryption. I think.
21:36:31                    SJFriedl German is more like a respiratory condition, like a hacking cough.
21:37:29                      Stereo Swiss german, on the other hand, can be used as encrypted 300 baud modem encoding.
21:38:20                datendelphin Jodeling maybe... yes
21:38:21                      Stereo Ok, any other business?
21:38:34                datendelphin the osmf-talk?
21:38:40                      Stereo I thought that was DTMF
21:38:43                      Stereo Oh yes, sorry.
21:38:54                datendelphin or shoud we do that another time
21:39:03                datendelphin it is late
21:39:13                      Stereo Your call.
21:39:47                datendelphin The point is that I haven't subscribed new members for some time
21:40:00                     pnorman We stopped auto-subscribing people, didn't we?
21:40:05                datendelphin Mainly because it was very controversial each time.
21:40:34                datendelphin We never had auto-subscription, it was always manually done by me since civicrm
21:40:46                      Stereo So it happened automanually?
21:40:55                datendelphin yes
21:41:12                      Stereo I'm not sure what email you get as a new member these days.
21:41:18                     pnorman Well, we stopped subscribing people when they became members and instead directed them to self-subscribe, and approved subscription requests from members, right?
21:41:31                datendelphin yes
21:42:03                datendelphin Since we have the new welcome message, which tells new members that they have access to that ML
21:43:02                datendelphin It seems to work, we see new subscriptions quite regularly
21:43:08                      Stereo That message is configured somewhere in CiviCRM I haven't found yet?
21:43:22                datendelphin Sure. CiviCRM is full of wonders :)
21:43:29                      Stereo Isn't it just.
21:43:34                datendelphin its in the auto reminders section
21:43:55                datendelphin scheduled to be sent the day after the member joined
21:44:44                      Stereo As a Mailing?
21:44:53                datendelphin So if we agree that this mode of operation is better, I should probably search hard in all the 100 OSM wikis for references to the list and clarify that the member has to subscribe themselves
21:45:29                datendelphin no as a scheduled reminder. But it will reach the member as a mail, the member does not see which mechanism is behind that mail
21:45:38                      Stereo It could also be in the standard mailing signature
21:45:47                datendelphin yes
21:46:32                     pnorman I think this is better than people getting on the list without a subscribe action
21:47:44                datendelphin so can we have a vote: Keep this new mode of operation. People are informed by the welcome message about the ML and that they have to subscribe themself. There will be no "automatic" subscription of new members
21:47:58                      Stereo Could I get added to the osmf-talk list admins?
21:48:15                      Stereo I vote yes.
21:48:16                datendelphin That is another topic, can we have the vote first
21:48:57                     pnorman +1
21:49:00                    SJFriedl +1
21:49:06                   Thomas___ +1
21:49:50                     pnorman I have to step out, so I'll see you all next meeting
21:49:57                datendelphin ok, thanks
21:49:58                    SJFriedl thanks paul
21:50:27                datendelphin unanimously accepted as it looks
21:50:42                datendelphin About the list admin: I would like to change the admin email from the four individuals to membership@?
21:51:11                datendelphin the password is shared anyway, mailman is annoying in that regard.
21:51:46                      Stereo So anything would go directly to otrs?
21:51:51                      Stereo Sounds good to me.
21:52:10                datendelphin yes and that odd list on this page:
21:52:15                datendelphin would look less odd
21:52:45                datendelphin I'm on that list even without an osmfoundation email
21:53:19                datendelphin ok, Stereo I'll send you the password and ask the other list admins what they think about it
21:53:26                datendelphin That's all from me
21:53:50                      Stereo We have to keep some things for next time anyway, it'll be dull otherwise :)
21:54:20                    SJFriedl thanks everybody
21:54:24                      Stereo If no one else has anything to add, this concludes our meeting. Thanks everyone.