- twain47: Brian Quinion
- chrisfl: Chris Fleming
- cmarqu: Colin Marquardt
- gravitystorm: Andy Allan
- miblon: Milo van der Linden
- mkl: Mikel Maron
- RichardF: Richard Fairhurst
- rweait: Richard Weait
- samlarsen1: Sam Larsen
- TomH: Tom Hughes
- zere: Matt Amos
- Minutes of 16 Dec 2010 Minutes discarded and meeting declared non-quorate.
- Review of 06 January 2011 Minutes
- Proposed by: Mikel Maron
- Seconded by: Milo van der Linden and Sam Larson
- Objections: none
- Minutes accepted
- Old business
- Tile layers scorecard
- Henk was not present. No action taken.
- Review of budgeting draft from Milo
- The SWG discussed the balance between "sufficient data from WG to provide for their budgets" and "administrative overhead of budgeting process". The goal is to lean towards a simple process to limit the additional burden on the Working Groups.
- Initial budget period will be the remainder of this OSMF fiscal year. Further budget periods will likely match fiscal years.
- Milo to contact WG chairs for comments on the budgeting process to date.
- New business
- No new business was discussed.
- Next meeting
- nominally same time next week but pending discussion on email list.
(10:00:05 AM) rweait: *** logging started *** (10:01:30 AM) samlarsen1 [firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room. (10:01:32 AM) mkl [~email@example.com] entered the room. (10:01:57 AM) mkl: hi everyone (10:03:26 AM) rweait: hey mkl. (10:03:45 AM) mkl: are we due to start now, or in 1 hour? (10:04:06 AM) rweait: Shall we start by dispensing with old minutes of the 16th ? (10:04:08 AM) rweait: now. (10:04:24 AM) mkl: logging on? (10:04:29 AM) rweait: yup/ (10:04:53 AM) rweait: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2010-12-16 (10:05:21 AM) mkl: this was the last meeting (10:05:22 AM) mkl: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-01-06 (10:05:40 AM) rweait: yes, that one as well. Dec-12 is some old stuff. (10:05:46 AM) chrisfl left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). (10:06:00 AM) mkl: 12/16 meeting, we discussed last week, didn't really happen :) (10:06:01 AM) rweait: or declare the meeting non-quorate (10:06:12 AM) miblon: I have some documents to share. They are currently on Google Docs. Anyone here who cannot access google docs? (10:06:29 AM) mkl: miblon: can you make these public? (10:06:31 AM) miblon: Others; please share Google docs contact details so I can provide access (10:06:38 AM) miblon: public is fine with me too if all agree (10:06:39 AM) rweait: miblon: can we get a text-version for the wiki? (10:06:41 AM) mkl: rweait: makes sense to non-quorate (10:06:53 AM) rweait: objections? (10:06:54 AM) miblon: rweait, I would love to migrate the docs to the wiki (10:07:25 AM) mkl: whatever is quickest for sharing (10:07:39 AM) chrisfl [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room. (10:07:52 AM) miblon: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bzg1tRnWFcA0NGQ2NmFkMzYtMmY2My00MGZhLTg3YTEtMzQzZTg0NWI3YTZm&hl=en (10:09:03 AM) mkl: ok, i have access (10:09:44 AM) miblon: access is set to public (10:09:53 AM) mkl: the balance we need to strike here is effective goal setting and budgetting (10:09:58 AM) mkl: and ease for everyone (10:10:28 AM) mkl: for comparison, can we also take a look at the twg's planning and budget document? (10:11:55 AM) miblon: mkl, do you have a link to that? (10:12:15 AM) rweait: Any movers, seconders, objectors for minutes of Jan 06, 2011? (10:12:19 AM) mkl: i'm not saying the planning template isn't simple, but i also more colloquial ways of expressing this (10:12:31 AM) mkl: miblon: not on hand ... gotta look it up (10:12:36 AM) ***miblon seconds (10:12:49 AM) zere: miblon: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/File:TWGmeetingsummary2010-11-11.pdf (10:13:59 AM) mkl: zere: is there something else, or was this it? (10:14:22 AM) ***RichardF congratulates TWG for being only OSMF committee to produce nice, readable PDF minutes (10:14:27 AM) miblon: zere, got it (10:14:39 AM) zere: mkl: that was it, afaik. (10:14:44 AM) mkl: ok thx (10:15:34 AM) mkl: so i think the needs the budget and planning template are trying to address are some of the things to think about it (10:15:41 AM) zere: the previous minutes were a little more detailed http://www.osmfoundation.org/images/7/7f/TWGMeetingSummary2010-08-25.pdf (10:15:55 AM) mkl: but i foresee grumblings about having to stick to a particular format (10:15:59 AM) zere: s/minutes/summary/ (10:16:49 AM) miblon: rule of thumb: Minutes shouldn't take hours.... (10:17:05 AM) miblon: ;-) (10:17:21 AM) mkl: miblon: i'm looking at the gdocs you shared (10:17:47 AM) rweait: We still need to review last minutes. http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-01-06 (10:18:05 AM) mkl: oh can someone propose please. i think they're fine (10:18:31 AM) rweait: YOu aren't moving them yourself mkl? (10:18:38 AM) mkl: sure i'll propose :) (10:18:44 AM) rweait: any objections? (10:18:54 AM) samlarsen1: i'll second (10:18:55 AM) miblon: mkl, frederik adviced me to set up a planning template light instead of full with monitoring guidelines, so let's not discuss the full (10:19:12 AM) mkl: thx (10:19:24 AM) miblon: no obj (10:19:43 AM) mkl: ok just quickly reviewing from last time ... discussing miblon's drafts is what we had planned for now (10:20:07 AM) mkl: also had henk to publish a tile scorecard, but he's not here (10:20:15 AM) mkl: sorry, should we continue? (10:20:18 AM) miblon: ok, careful what you say, my 5 mnth old daughter is watching (10:20:26 AM) rweait: absolutely (10:21:04 AM) mkl: let's just say it all in a soothing tone ;) (10:21:11 AM) miblon: ;-) (10:21:46 AM) mkl: ok, so what does everyone think? what kinds of things does the budgeting/spending policy guidelines and process need to accomplish? what format do these things take? what are the thoughts on the docs miblon shared? (10:23:28 AM) miblon: I have set up the doc so it contains three goals (10:23:32 AM) mkl: or miblon: do you want to explain this approach? (10:23:35 AM) miblon: Goal 1: publish plans and budget requirements per working group (10:23:46 AM) miblon: Goal 2: Register, coordinate and allocate funding (10:23:56 AM) miblon: Goal 3: Communicate sponsoring (10:24:29 AM) miblon: Basically what I personally would like to accomplish is a clear way to communicate to the world what we do, how and who makes it possible (10:25:18 AM) samlarsen1: Goal 3 - maybe they could communicate the high priority funding requests for each WG - so sponsors know what they might be funding before they make a donation (10:26:09 AM) zere: miblon: budgeting and planning is for the future, though? surely that's different from communicating to the world what we've done? (10:26:24 AM) miblon: Goal 3 sample I had in mind: http://www.osgeo.org/content/sponsorship/sponsors.html (10:26:41 AM) miblon: zere, what we do. Planning a project == doing something ;-) (10:26:59 AM) miblon: Eventually this will result in what we've done. And it will still be visible (10:27:01 AM) zere: i disagree - planning is planning. *doing* something is different ;-) (10:27:28 AM) miblon: ok, delete "what we do" and make it "what we intend to do" (10:27:51 AM) zere: and we need to be flexible enough to recognise that planning != reality, that sometimes things will happen that weren't on the plan, or that things which were on the plan won't happen. (10:27:52 AM) miblon: ? (10:28:45 AM) mkl: that i agree with too ... the bdugetting and financing process needs some mechanism for flexability (10:29:10 AM) miblon: zere, I agree. But I am also convinced we shouldn't give WGs to much of an evaluation requirement (10:29:41 AM) miblon: we can make planning != reality implicit or explicit. I opt for the first. (10:29:41 AM) mkl: i think these are all things we need to work on, yes ... but right now the Board has asked us to focus mostly on Goal 1 (10:29:52 AM) zere: i think the other WGs already have plenty enough requirements (10:30:09 AM) mkl: zere: what are the current requirements? (10:30:21 AM) chrisfl: We can tackle uncertainty to some extent by asking for a contingency figure as well, and ensuring that those funds are available if required. (10:30:39 AM) zere: mkl: the work that they actually get done? (10:32:17 AM) mkl: ok, so we need a process here. unfortunately it requires something additional (10:32:35 AM) mkl: it's our job to make that something actually beneficial to the groups, rather than a burden (10:33:36 AM) miblon: mkl, good point! That is the struggle I was facing when writing the documents (10:34:02 AM) miblon: Any comment in that regard, to make things more lean and mean will be appreciated (10:34:38 AM) mkl: I can mention the requirements of OSI. Of all the funders I've dealt with, they are the best to work with. (10:34:46 AM) chrisfl: Agree, the process should be lightweight - enough information needs to be provided up front so that the money can be approved if required, without requiring a long dialog. But not so heavy that it takes a long time and work, questions can be asked if needed. (10:34:53 AM) mkl: Rather than asking for budgetting, planning, and reporting in any particular format (10:35:06 AM) miblon: Basically what I try to describe at Goal 1 is: SWG initiates (ask: "Hey, what do you guys intend doing this year?") (10:35:14 AM) miblon: And WGs respond (10:35:23 AM) miblon: no more, no less. (10:35:28 AM) chrisfl: Question is does the structure help or hinder? (10:35:32 AM) mkl: They ask specific questions, and it's up to the fundee to respond in whatever format makes sense (10:36:33 AM) miblon: mkl, and then "They" will make that information somewhere available. They being, in my opinion someone from the SWG (10:37:09 AM) mkl: You mean, this should all be public... (10:37:52 AM) miblon: mkl yes (10:38:33 AM) zere: i think a year is maybe too long a time-scale to be looking over, at least initially (10:39:04 AM) mkl: zere: agreed for this round. as we're about halfway through the financial year, we could look at 6 months? (10:39:35 AM) mkl: we can also invite longer term planning speculation, but not require it this time (10:40:00 AM) miblon: zere, I agree on the year. Discussed it with wood^2 and we decided it might be wise to publish on demand (10:40:09 AM) zere: it's probably better to leave the time scale undefined - let the WGs use whatever time horizon is suitable for them (10:40:33 AM) mkl: though we do have something specific right now, with the MQ donation (10:40:41 AM) miblon: zere, noted, good point (10:41:34 AM) miblon: MQ donation has nothing to do with Goal 1 in my opinion (10:41:58 AM) miblon: Or did MQ specifically stated how they want the donation to be spent? (10:42:19 AM) mkl: no they didn't (10:42:32 AM) miblon: then the MQ donation has to do with goal 2 (10:42:36 AM) mkl: and aside, that's going to always be preferable for us, when related to donors (10:42:49 AM) mkl: the osmf has a need to spend the money, that's all (10:44:08 AM) mkl: yes agreed miblon (10:45:01 AM) mkl: ok at 45 minutes (10:45:38 AM) mkl: can we give miblon some thoughts on what would be useful for the WG to receive as guidance? (10:47:31 AM) mkl: hello .......... hellloooo (10:47:51 AM) ***miblon is thinking about selfguidance ;-) (10:48:57 AM) chrisfl: sorry got called away - just catching up with the discussion (10:50:12 AM) miblon: diaper? bottle? sleep? Why is someone getting so noisy near my left ear? (10:50:36 AM) mkl: ask him/her for a plan (10:51:28 AM) mkl: well ... i like the "OSI approach" to this ... (10:52:00 AM) chrisfl: I think the documents are good. Possibly a note to say that they are guidelines, and groups can use whatever format they prefer. (10:52:04 AM) chrisfl: ? (10:53:00 AM) miblon: chrisfl; I do not intend on handing them formats. I intend on calling, mailing or skyping them (10:53:21 AM) samlarsen1: do we need to mock up a budget template they can use as a base - will make process faster for WG's & make all budgets follow similar structure (10:53:25 AM) miblon: Let me put it in a format and simply ask each WG's chair some simple questions (10:53:45 AM) chrisfl: Of the three questions, what are you wanting to do? What do you need to do this? and what outcome do you expect is the way to go. (10:55:22 AM) mkl: this makes sense to me (10:56:07 AM) chrisfl: My only worry is that the Outcome and the Activity might end up being the same thing. (10:56:42 AM) samlarsen1: sorry - missed the template link :| (10:57:45 AM) mkl: heh, yea i've seen that happen. i guess the point is to align the activity with a goal of the group. if the connection is obvious, then don't worry about it. (10:58:13 AM) rweait: samlarsen1: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bzg1tRnWFcA0NGQ2NmFkMzYtMmY2My00MGZhLTg3YTEtMzQzZTg0NWI3YTZm&hl=en (10:58:15 AM) mkl: but for instance, the twg doc lists the timeline on hardware purchases, and below that, benefits/justifications for each. i think that's good to draw out (10:59:21 AM) mkl: ok we're almost at an hour (10:59:22 AM) chrisfl: agree (10:59:28 AM) mkl: miblon, has this been helpful? (11:00:35 AM) miblon: absolutely (11:00:59 AM) rweait: move to adjourn then? (11:01:02 AM) mkl: i suggest we close the meeting, and try to iterate over email substantially this week (11:01:07 AM) mkl: same time next week? (11:01:21 AM) chrisfl: same time next week, works for me. (11:01:22 AM) rweait: Sounds good. Objections? (11:01:40 AM) miblon: I won't be available next week same time (11:02:17 AM) mkl: ok ... should we discuss over email moving an hour later perhaps? (11:02:43 AM) rweait: let's keep same/same and address other business. (11:03:19 AM) rweait: from last week we never discussed : (11:03:21 AM) rweait: * Publish and act on tile policy. Tile layers scorecard. * SWG Mission and OSMF Mission * Clarity on OSMF Resources and Priorities * Formalize the working group (11:03:45 AM) mkl: ok ... miblon, let's keep it going on email, and see what happens for next week, ok? (11:03:54 AM) miblon: ok (11:04:08 AM) mkl: rweait: tile layers ... henk was going to do a scorecard ... can we remind him (11:04:28 AM) rweait: Okay shall we close logging? (11:04:51 AM) miblon: I have to leave, we'll be in touch (11:04:58 AM) miblon left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving). (11:05:15 AM) samlarsen1 left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client). (11:05:21 AM) rweait: *** logging closed ***