Working Group Minutes/SWG 2011-02-25
- Review minutes of 18 February 2011 Minutes
- Proposed by: Steven Feldman
- Seconded by: Chris Fleming
- Budgeting process. Kate/Steve were to refer budget documents to Board
- forwarded to board.
- Tile layer wording on non-commercial guideline; feedback from board.
- no further feedback from board on explanatory wording for non-commercial preference.
- amended "non-commercial" description to " Non-commercial services are preferred. However commercial services which provide benefit to the community are welcome."
- Henk to forward to board.
- Discussed the matter and refer it to the board
- Mikel to miss SWG meetings until 25 March.
- Henk to chair in absence of Mikel.
- SWG note withdrawal from SWG of Milo van der Linden and thank him for his contributions.
- Next meeting 04 March 2011 1600UTC
(10:59:26 AM) rweait: ** Logging begins ** (10:59:59 AM) toffehoff [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room. (11:00:23 AM) mkl: howdy how's everybody? (11:00:32 AM) rweait: Well. (11:00:36 AM) samlarsen1: ping (11:00:43 AM) toffehoff: Just waking up .... (11:00:51 AM) mkl: ping _chrisfl RichardF twain47 zere (11:00:56 AM) mkl: toffehoff ... where are you now? (11:01:07 AM) toffehoff: Redmond w/ Steve's (11:01:38 AM) toffehoff: Planning on going to MS today. (11:01:42 AM) toffehoff: Talk with some people. (11:02:20 AM) _chrisfl: hi (11:02:25 AM) mkl: wow, enjoy ;) (11:02:59 AM) mkl: propose/second minutes anyone? (11:03:12 AM) toffehoff: mkl: thanks (11:03:40 AM) toffehoff: Unfortunately I wasn't there, so I cannot propose.... (11:04:19 AM) stevenfeldman: proposed (with embarrassment for unfilled action to follow) (11:04:49 AM) _chrisfl: seconded (11:05:02 AM) rweait: any objections? (11:05:14 AM) mkl: i guess the first item on the agenda today is pretty quick :( (11:05:30 AM) mkl: * Budgeting process. Kate/Steve were to refer budget documents to Board. (11:05:37 AM) mkl: * Tile layer wording on non-commercial guideline. This is only Board feedback. (11:05:43 AM) mkl: * Wikimapia license issues (11:05:48 AM) mkl: * Continue discussion of routing (11:05:53 AM) mkl: * Attendance issues (11:06:38 AM) rweait: Shall we mark that "in progress" stevenfeldman ? (11:06:48 AM) mkl: steven ... just a quick note to Board is fine. We can discuss on Wednesday (11:07:49 AM) stevenfeldman: I am afraid so, wonderchook and I were due to talk briefly this week and then send to board but it didn't happen. Apols :( (11:08:15 AM) mkl: ok. i know kate has been swamped (11:08:22 AM) mkl: next Tile Layers (11:08:30 AM) rweait: Shall we minute miblon's withdrawal from SWG and our thanks to him? (11:08:35 AM) stevenfeldman: OK i will do something now it's email@example.com ? (11:08:44 AM) mkl: firstname.lastname@example.org (11:08:56 AM) stevenfeldman: gotcha (11:09:08 AM) mkl: rweait:let's catch this at the end? (11:09:51 AM) mkl: Board still only had the one feedback on expanded description of non-commercial preferred (11:10:17 AM) mkl: Any wording proposed? (11:11:08 AM) toffehoff: What was the page again... (11:11:29 AM) mkl: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Strategic_working_group/New_Tile_Layer_Guidelines_Proposal (11:12:20 AM) toffehoff: got it. (11:12:58 AM) _chrisfl: Still needs some work but something along the lines: Non-commercial services are preferred. However commercial services which provide benefit to the community are welcome. (11:13:17 AM) _chrisfl: ? (11:15:24 AM) rweait: "Commercial tile services are eligible for Featured Tile Layer consideration. Non-commercial services are preferred. (11:16:47 AM) _chrisfl: Was the worry that the overall tone was too anti-commercial? (11:17:30 AM) mkl: Yes. I think _chrisfl's suggestion has the right tone (11:17:31 AM) rweait: toffehoff. mkl, what was the mood of the room during the discussion? Any other feedback? (11:17:48 AM) mkl: nope otherwise Board is happy (11:18:59 AM) toffehoff: I think the problem with commercial layes was (11:19:18 AM) toffehoff: we do not want to become dependant on a commercial service. (11:19:20 AM) toffehoff: and (11:19:47 AM) toffehoff: we need some wording why we include one commercial layer and not all commercial layers. (11:20:23 AM) toffehoff: the wording of _chrisfl may be a good start (about benefit to the community) (11:20:41 AM) rweait: toffehoff: we already disclaim that we can't show all layers. No need to separately disclaim commercial layers (11:20:56 AM) _chrisfl: ultimately the Unique and Interesting also take care of a lot of that. (11:21:24 AM) toffehoff: Right, but when dealing with commercial layers, some other powers come in play (11:21:40 AM) mkl: i think it was just giving an indication why we prefer non-commercial. but also, making sure commercial services are still welcome (11:21:50 AM) rweait: So let's ban commercial layers if they are too "complicated" (11:22:01 AM) _chrisfl: I can't see a situation where the default layer wouldn't be hosted by OSM; so we shouldn't become dependant on a commercial service. (11:22:38 AM) _chrisfl: I suspect that only commercial layers will meet the "performance" requirements..... (11:22:49 AM) toffehoff: rweait: then we need to define "commercial layers" (11:22:52 AM) _chrisfl: (or commercially sponsored layers) (11:23:18 AM) mkl: there's nothing wrong in principal with commercial layers (11:24:02 AM) _chrisfl: or possibly ban layers with things like advertising, (11:24:03 AM) mkl: as we've already pointed out, we are already using commercially sponsored layers, like NoName (11:24:21 AM) mkl: we're happy for NoName, right? (11:24:58 AM) _chrisfl: I am. (11:25:02 AM) mkl: so we're not here to debate this on principal. we just need to get the wording right (11:25:12 AM) rweait: The wording is right. (11:25:19 AM) toffehoff: Can we say it needs to support the community in a way that is not being done by a non-commercial way? (11:25:59 AM) mkl: no it's not right, because Board isn't happy with it (11:26:14 AM) _chrisfl: I think we want to avoid something which is generating revenue or advertising the commercial provider. (11:26:26 AM) stevenfeldman: I am a bit baffled by the differentiation between a commercial layer and a non commercial layer? Either it is a robust service and has some uniqueness/interest or it doesn't (11:26:56 AM) _chrisfl: But a commercial layer that is useful is welcome? (11:27:18 AM) samlarsen1: what is the board's suggested wording? (11:27:39 AM) _chrisfl: and aren't commercial companies part of the community? (11:28:25 AM) mkl: board had no suggestion. but i think _chrisfl's wording addresses the concern (11:28:40 AM) stevenfeldman: slightly tongue in cheek is an ugly or non useful layer from a very worthy non commercial organisation more desirable than one from a commercial org? (11:29:33 AM) rweait: stevenfeldman: no, we already have too many of those. (I kid, I kid) (11:29:52 AM) mkl: ok, can we vote on this wording (11:30:05 AM) mkl: " Non-commercial services are preferred. However commercial services which provide benefit to the community are welcome." (11:30:11 AM) samlarsen1: +1 (11:30:21 AM) toffehoff: +1 (11:30:25 AM) rweait: s/are welcome/will be considered/ (11:30:47 AM) stevenfeldman: I would ask to avoid any statement of preference and limit acceptance criteria to usefulness/uniqueness and rotation of spaces available within layer picker (11:31:21 AM) rweait: stevenfeldman: but we do prefere non-commercial. (11:31:51 AM) mkl: yes. consider it ... if all other things were equal ... (11:31:56 AM) stevenfeldman: rweait: is that an individual preference or official osm policy? (11:32:25 AM) mkl: board looked at this policy and agrees with it (11:32:35 AM) rweait: stevenfeldman: that's the policy of SWG as we decided when we drafted and discussed it. (11:32:46 AM) stevenfeldman: ok abstain from me (11:32:56 AM) mkl: any more votes? (11:34:15 AM) mkl: ok. toffehoff, can you forward that wording to the board? (11:34:27 AM) toffehoff: Can do. (11:34:37 AM) mkl: thx (11:34:45 AM) mkl: next up Wikimapia (11:35:01 AM) mkl: we talked about this last time a couple weeks ago (11:35:46 AM) mkl: basically, do we think that their warning to not trace OSM is enough? apparently it's still technically possible. (11:35:49 AM) stevenfeldman: Budget stuff sent to foundation board, mark action as complete (11:36:53 AM) mkl: thx (11:37:35 AM) mkl: lwg seemed to basically say this is a judgement call, and wasn't prepared to judge themselves (11:37:58 AM) _chrisfl: Do we have any evidence they have been tracing? (11:38:16 AM) _chrisfl: What's the difference between tracing and using for information? (11:38:56 AM) wonderchook [~email@example.com] entered the room. (11:39:28 AM) mkl: it's a fine line (11:39:38 AM) mkl: i don't think there's any evidence now (11:40:22 AM) _chrisfl: Are there community members that are complaining/upset because there work is/may be copied by wikimapia? (11:40:26 AM) samlarsen1: i've just done some editing - you have to be in satellite background mode to edit - that suggests no OSM tracing available (11:42:13 AM) samlarsen1: _chrisfl: it only takes one (11:42:29 AM) mkl: yea, but why include any alternative sources at all? (11:42:54 AM) rweait: There are sites that show comparisons between maps. (11:43:11 AM) samlarsen1: yes - but can you digitise over OSM? I can't seem to (11:44:00 AM) mkl: yea ... perhaps this isn't an issue now (11:44:34 AM) _chrisfl: you could copy names (11:45:16 AM) toffehoff: Where does it say on the wikimapia you may not copy from other maps (like OSM and GMaps?) (11:46:00 AM) toffehoff: Nothing here: http://www.wikimapia.org/special_pages/guidelines/ (11:46:15 AM) stevenfeldman: samlarsen: +1 (11:47:23 AM) _chrisfl: I'm not sure that it's worth worry about? They have taken action so it's not possible to directly copy from the OSM layer. (11:47:34 AM) mkl: Vote: SWG tables discussion on wikimapia unless further issues/complaints arise (11:47:42 AM) _chrisfl: Google have a lot more to worry about here. (11:47:49 AM) _chrisfl: mkl: +1 (11:47:50 AM) toffehoff: But we're not Google. (11:47:53 AM) wonderchook: +1 mkl (11:47:56 AM) samlarsen1: +1 (11:48:13 AM) stevenfeldman: +1 (11:48:30 AM) toffehoff: Again, wondering about them not actual stating that copying of sources is not OK. (11:48:58 AM) samlarsen1: someone update: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Use_Cases#Wikimapia.3F (11:49:03 AM) rweait: + 1 (but I think you mean "shelve" rather than "table") (11:49:37 AM) samlarsen1: ... with result of this primitive investigation (11:49:51 AM) mkl: table, shelve, file, recycle :) (11:50:17 AM) toffehoff: I'm not so happy with it. (11:50:41 AM) mkl: toffehoff: what do you suggest? (11:50:58 AM) mkl: we could raise this on Wednesday too (11:51:21 AM) rweait: toffehoff: If I recall the history correctly, they did allow editing on OSM and we blocked them. They got rid of editing on OSM tiles. (11:51:23 AM) toffehoff: Asking WikiMapia to make more clear that (at least) OSM cannot be used to copy. (11:51:44 AM) samlarsen1: toffehoff: surely we have done this already? (11:51:46 AM) toffehoff: But it's not in their guidelines. (11:52:13 AM) toffehoff: They've done it technically (11:52:28 AM) mkl: best would be a popup when switching to OSM layer (11:52:43 AM) stevenfeldman: toffehoff: there is nothing in their guidelines about copying from any source. (11:52:52 AM) toffehoff: Right. (11:53:03 AM) toffehoff: I can only talk about OSM. Not other sources. (11:54:00 AM) rweait: They are actively discouraging editing on OSM(etc.) (11:54:11 AM) toffehoff: Now users still can copy and say "Oh, I did not know that" (11:54:18 AM) mkl: I suggest we take this to Board (11:54:23 AM) _chrisfl: looking at mentions of openstreetmap in their forums there mentions seem to discouraging editing.... (11:54:31 AM) _chrisfl: mkl +1 (11:55:56 AM) mkl: ok let's note that SWG shelves it and passes to Board :) (11:56:05 AM) mkl: 5 minutes left (11:56:17 AM) mkl: we have routing, attendance, and thx to milo (11:56:25 AM) mkl: also i have to say (11:56:39 AM) mkl: it's not certain i can make the next few meetings (11:56:43 AM) mkl: i'll be in Haiti (11:56:53 AM) rweait: Have a safe trip. (11:56:55 AM) stevenfeldman: oooh hard luck (11:57:07 AM) mkl: toffehoff, can you take up chair during this time? (11:57:11 AM) samlarsen1: say hi from remote Hotties (11:57:25 AM) mkl: thx. should be good. long overdue for me personally (11:57:28 AM) toffehoff: Probably can.. (checking calendar) (11:58:17 AM) toffehoff: No problem with chairing. (11:58:26 AM) toffehoff: For how long are you going? (11:58:51 AM) mkl: i'll be there til the 19th (11:59:15 AM) rweait: so you are okay for 25th? (11:59:21 AM) toffehoff: Save travels then. (11:59:25 AM) mkl: should be (11:59:40 AM) mkl: thx toffehoff (11:59:43 AM) mkl: btw ... rweait: Shall we minute miblon's withdrawal from SWG and our thanks to him? (11:59:45 AM) toffehoff: What about miblon? (11:59:56 AM) mkl: thanks to miblon :) +1 (12:00:05 PM) toffehoff: +1 (12:00:06 PM) samlarsen1: miblon +1 :) (12:00:17 PM) stevenfeldman: +1 (12:00:39 PM) rweait: So noted. ;-) (12:00:41 PM) samlarsen1: routing ... (12:01:18 PM) mkl: hour is up (12:01:22 PM) mkl: we should close the meeting (12:01:26 PM) mkl: can chat informally about it (12:01:44 PM) rweait: routing deferred, then? (12:01:53 PM) samlarsen1: i'm fine without extra routing chat :) (12:02:23 PM) rweait: are we aware of any apologies for today? (12:03:06 PM) rweait: next meeting, same/same? (12:03:20 PM) toffehoff: 'till next week! (12:03:29 PM) stevenfeldman: see you all next week then byeee (12:03:55 PM) samlarsen1 left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client). (12:04:08 PM) wonderchook: rweait: I apologize for my tardiness (12:04:09 PM) wonderchook: ;) (12:04:28 PM) rweait: ** end log **