Working Group Minutes/SWG 2011-02-25


IRC Name Present Apologies
_chrisfl Chris Fleming y
cmarqu Colin Marquardt
Firefishy Grant Slater
mkl Mikel Maron y
RichardF Richard Fairhurst y
rweait Richard Weait y
samlarsen1 Sam Larsen y
stevenfeldman Steven Feldman y
toffehoff Henk Hoff y
TomH Tom Hughes y
twain47 Brian Quinion y
wonderchook Kate Chapman y
Also attending
IRC handle Name
zere Matt Amos


  • Proposed by: Steven Feldman
  • Seconded by: Chris Fleming
  • Budgeting process. Kate/Steve were to refer budget documents to Board
  • forwarded to board.
  • Tile layer wording on non-commercial guideline; feedback from board.
  • no further feedback from board on explanatory wording for non-commercial preference.
  • amended "non-commercial" description to " Non-commercial services are preferred. However commercial services which provide benefit to the community are welcome."
  • Henk to forward to board.
  • Wikimapia
  • Discussed the matter and refer it to the board
  • Attendance
  • Mikel to miss SWG meetings until 25 March.
  • Henk to chair in absence of Mikel.
  • SWG note withdrawal from SWG of Milo van der Linden and thank him for his contributions.
  • Next meeting 04 March 2011 1600UTC


(10:59:26 AM) rweait: ** Logging begins **
(10:59:59 AM) toffehoff [] entered the room.
(11:00:23 AM) mkl: howdy how's everybody?
(11:00:32 AM) rweait: Well. 
(11:00:36 AM) samlarsen1: ping
(11:00:43 AM) toffehoff: Just waking up ....
(11:00:51 AM) mkl: ping _chrisfl RichardF twain47 zere
(11:00:56 AM) mkl: toffehoff ... where are you now?
(11:01:07 AM) toffehoff: Redmond w/ Steve's
(11:01:38 AM) toffehoff: Planning on going to MS today.
(11:01:42 AM) toffehoff: Talk with some people.
(11:02:20 AM) _chrisfl: hi
(11:02:25 AM) mkl: wow, enjoy ;)
(11:02:59 AM) mkl: propose/second minutes anyone?
(11:03:12 AM) toffehoff: mkl: thanks
(11:03:40 AM) toffehoff: Unfortunately I wasn't there, so I cannot propose....
(11:04:19 AM) stevenfeldman: proposed (with embarrassment for unfilled action to follow)
(11:04:49 AM) _chrisfl: seconded
(11:05:02 AM) rweait: any objections?
(11:05:14 AM) mkl: i guess the first item on the agenda today is pretty quick :(
(11:05:30 AM) mkl: 	* Budgeting process. Kate/Steve were to refer budget documents to Board.
(11:05:37 AM) mkl:         * Tile layer wording on non-commercial guideline. This is only Board  feedback. 
(11:05:43 AM) mkl: 	* Wikimapia license issues 
(11:05:48 AM) mkl: 	* Continue discussion of routing
(11:05:53 AM) mkl:      * Attendance issues
(11:06:38 AM) rweait: Shall we mark that "in progress" stevenfeldman ?
(11:06:48 AM) mkl: steven ... just a quick note to Board is fine. We can discuss on Wednesday
(11:07:49 AM) stevenfeldman: I am afraid so, wonderchook and I were due to talk briefly this week and then send to board but it didn't happen. Apols :( 
(11:08:15 AM) mkl: ok. i know kate has been swamped
(11:08:22 AM) mkl: next Tile Layers
(11:08:30 AM) rweait: Shall we minute miblon's withdrawal from SWG and our thanks to him?  
(11:08:35 AM) stevenfeldman: OK i will do something now it's ?
(11:08:44 AM) mkl:
(11:08:56 AM) stevenfeldman: gotcha
(11:09:08 AM) mkl: rweait:let's catch this at the end?
(11:09:51 AM) mkl: Board still only had the one feedback on expanded description of non-commercial preferred
(11:10:17 AM) mkl: Any wording proposed?
(11:11:08 AM) toffehoff: What was the page again...
(11:11:29 AM) mkl:
(11:12:20 AM) toffehoff: got it.
(11:12:58 AM) _chrisfl: Still needs some work but something along the lines: Non-commercial services are preferred. However commercial services which provide benefit to the community are welcome.
(11:13:17 AM) _chrisfl: ?
(11:15:24 AM) rweait: "Commercial tile services are eligible for Featured Tile Layer consideration.  Non-commercial services are preferred.
(11:16:47 AM) _chrisfl: Was the worry that the overall tone was too anti-commercial?
(11:17:30 AM) mkl: Yes. I think _chrisfl's suggestion has the right tone
(11:17:31 AM) rweait: toffehoff. mkl, what was the mood of the room during the discussion?  Any other feedback?
(11:17:48 AM) mkl: nope otherwise Board is happy
(11:18:59 AM) toffehoff: I think the problem with commercial layes was
(11:19:18 AM) toffehoff: we do not want to become dependant on a commercial service.
(11:19:20 AM) toffehoff: and 
(11:19:47 AM) toffehoff: we need some wording why we include one commercial layer and not all commercial layers.
(11:20:23 AM) toffehoff: the wording of _chrisfl may be a good start (about benefit to the community)
(11:20:41 AM) rweait: toffehoff: we already disclaim that we can't show all layers.  No need to separately disclaim commercial layers 
(11:20:56 AM) _chrisfl: ultimately the Unique and Interesting also take care of a lot of that.
(11:21:24 AM) toffehoff: Right, but when dealing with commercial layers, some other powers come in play
(11:21:40 AM) mkl: i think it was just giving an indication why we prefer non-commercial. but also, making sure commercial services are still welcome
(11:21:50 AM) rweait: So let's ban commercial layers if they are too "complicated" 
(11:22:01 AM) _chrisfl: I can't see a situation where the default layer wouldn't be hosted by OSM; so we shouldn't become dependant on a commercial service.
(11:22:38 AM) _chrisfl: I suspect that only commercial layers will meet the "performance" requirements.....
(11:22:49 AM) toffehoff: rweait: then we need to define "commercial layers" 
(11:22:52 AM) _chrisfl: (or commercially sponsored layers)
(11:23:18 AM) mkl: there's nothing wrong in principal with commercial layers
(11:24:02 AM) _chrisfl: or possibly ban layers with things like advertising,
(11:24:03 AM) mkl: as we've already pointed out, we are already using commercially sponsored layers, like NoName
(11:24:21 AM) mkl: we're happy for NoName, right?
(11:24:58 AM) _chrisfl: I am.
(11:25:02 AM) mkl: so we're not here to debate this on principal. we just need to get the wording right
(11:25:12 AM) rweait: The wording is right.  
(11:25:19 AM) toffehoff: Can we say it needs to support the community in a way that is not being done by a non-commercial way?
(11:25:59 AM) mkl: no it's not right, because Board isn't happy with it
(11:26:14 AM) _chrisfl: I think we want to avoid something which is generating revenue or advertising the commercial provider.
(11:26:26 AM) stevenfeldman: I am a bit baffled by the differentiation between a commercial layer and a non commercial layer? Either it is a robust service and has some uniqueness/interest or it doesn't
(11:26:56 AM) _chrisfl: But a commercial layer that is useful is welcome?
(11:27:18 AM) samlarsen1: what is the board's suggested wording?
(11:27:39 AM) _chrisfl: and aren't commercial companies part of the community?
(11:28:25 AM) mkl: board had no suggestion. but i think _chrisfl's wording addresses the concern
(11:28:40 AM) stevenfeldman: slightly tongue in cheek is an ugly or non useful layer from a very worthy non commercial organisation more desirable than one from a commercial org?
(11:29:33 AM) rweait: stevenfeldman: no, we already have too many of those.  (I kid, I kid)
(11:29:52 AM) mkl: ok, can we vote on this wording
(11:30:05 AM) mkl: " Non-commercial services are preferred. However commercial services which provide benefit to the community are welcome."
(11:30:11 AM) samlarsen1: +1
(11:30:21 AM) toffehoff: +1
(11:30:25 AM) rweait: s/are welcome/will be considered/
(11:30:47 AM) stevenfeldman: I would ask to avoid any statement of preference and limit acceptance criteria to usefulness/uniqueness and rotation of spaces available within layer picker
(11:31:21 AM) rweait: stevenfeldman: but we do prefere non-commercial.  
(11:31:51 AM) mkl: yes. consider it ... if all other things were equal ... 
(11:31:56 AM) stevenfeldman: rweait: is that an individual preference or official osm policy?
(11:32:25 AM) mkl: board looked at this policy and agrees with it
(11:32:35 AM) rweait: stevenfeldman: that's the policy of SWG as we decided when we drafted and discussed it. 
(11:32:46 AM) stevenfeldman: ok abstain from me
(11:32:56 AM) mkl: any more votes?
(11:34:15 AM) mkl: ok. toffehoff, can you forward that wording to the board?
(11:34:27 AM) toffehoff: Can do.
(11:34:37 AM) mkl: thx
(11:34:45 AM) mkl: next up Wikimapia
(11:35:01 AM) mkl: we talked about this last time a couple weeks ago
(11:35:46 AM) mkl: basically, do we think that their warning to not trace OSM is enough? apparently it's still technically possible.
(11:35:49 AM) stevenfeldman: Budget stuff sent to foundation board, mark action as complete
(11:36:53 AM) mkl: thx
(11:37:35 AM) mkl: lwg seemed to basically say this is a judgement call, and wasn't prepared to judge themselves
(11:37:58 AM) _chrisfl: Do we have any evidence they have been tracing?
(11:38:16 AM) _chrisfl: What's the difference between tracing and using for information?
(11:38:56 AM) wonderchook [~wondercho@] entered the room.
(11:39:28 AM) mkl: it's a fine line
(11:39:38 AM) mkl: i don't think there's any evidence now
(11:40:22 AM) _chrisfl: Are there community members that are complaining/upset because there work is/may be copied by wikimapia?
(11:40:26 AM) samlarsen1: i've just done some editing - you have to be in satellite background mode to edit  - that suggests no OSM tracing available
(11:42:13 AM) samlarsen1: _chrisfl: it only takes one
(11:42:29 AM) mkl: yea, but why include any alternative sources at all?
(11:42:54 AM) rweait: There are sites that show comparisons between maps.
(11:43:11 AM) samlarsen1: yes - but can you digitise over OSM?  I can't seem to
(11:44:00 AM) mkl: yea ... perhaps this isn't an issue now
(11:44:34 AM) _chrisfl: you could copy names
(11:45:16 AM) toffehoff: Where does it say on the wikimapia you may not copy from other maps (like OSM and GMaps?)
(11:46:00 AM) toffehoff: Nothing here:
(11:46:15 AM) stevenfeldman: samlarsen: +1
(11:47:23 AM) _chrisfl: I'm not sure that it's worth worry about? They have taken action so it's not possible to directly copy from the OSM layer.
(11:47:34 AM) mkl: Vote: SWG tables discussion on wikimapia unless further issues/complaints arise
(11:47:42 AM) _chrisfl: Google have a lot more to worry about here.
(11:47:49 AM) _chrisfl: mkl: +1
(11:47:50 AM) toffehoff: But we're not Google.
(11:47:53 AM) wonderchook: +1 mkl
(11:47:56 AM) samlarsen1: +1
(11:48:13 AM) stevenfeldman: +1
(11:48:30 AM) toffehoff: Again, wondering about them not actual stating that copying of sources is not OK.
(11:48:58 AM) samlarsen1: someone update:
(11:49:03 AM) rweait: + 1 (but I think you mean "shelve" rather than "table")
(11:49:37 AM) samlarsen1: ...  with result of this primitive investigation
(11:49:51 AM) mkl: table, shelve, file, recycle :)
(11:50:17 AM) toffehoff: I'm not so happy with it.
(11:50:41 AM) mkl: toffehoff: what do you suggest?
(11:50:58 AM) mkl: we could raise this on Wednesday too
(11:51:21 AM) rweait: toffehoff: If I recall the history correctly, they did allow editing on OSM and we blocked them.  They got rid of editing on OSM tiles.
(11:51:23 AM) toffehoff: Asking WikiMapia to make more clear that (at least) OSM cannot be used to copy.
(11:51:44 AM) samlarsen1: toffehoff: surely we have done this already?
(11:51:46 AM) toffehoff: But it's not in their guidelines.
(11:52:13 AM) toffehoff: They've done it technically
(11:52:28 AM) mkl: best would be a popup when switching to OSM layer
(11:52:43 AM) stevenfeldman: toffehoff: there is nothing in their guidelines about copying from any source.
(11:52:52 AM) toffehoff: Right.
(11:53:03 AM) toffehoff: I can only talk about OSM. Not other sources.
(11:54:00 AM) rweait: They are actively discouraging editing on OSM(etc.) 
(11:54:11 AM) toffehoff: Now users still can copy and say "Oh, I did not know that"
(11:54:18 AM) mkl: I suggest we take this to Board
(11:54:23 AM) _chrisfl: looking at mentions of openstreetmap in their forums there mentions seem to discouraging editing....
(11:54:31 AM) _chrisfl: mkl +1
(11:55:56 AM) mkl: ok let's note that SWG shelves it and passes to Board :)
(11:56:05 AM) mkl: 5 minutes left
(11:56:17 AM) mkl: we have routing, attendance, and thx to milo
(11:56:25 AM) mkl: also i have to say
(11:56:39 AM) mkl: it's not certain i can make the next few meetings
(11:56:43 AM) mkl: i'll be in Haiti
(11:56:53 AM) rweait: Have a safe trip.
(11:56:55 AM) stevenfeldman: oooh hard luck
(11:57:07 AM) mkl: toffehoff, can you take up chair during this time?
(11:57:11 AM) samlarsen1: say hi from remote Hotties
(11:57:25 AM) mkl: thx. should be good. long overdue for me personally
(11:57:28 AM) toffehoff: Probably can.. (checking calendar)
(11:58:17 AM) toffehoff: No problem with chairing.
(11:58:26 AM) toffehoff: For how long are you going?
(11:58:51 AM) mkl: i'll be there til the 19th
(11:59:15 AM) rweait: so you are okay for 25th?
(11:59:21 AM) toffehoff: Save travels then.
(11:59:25 AM) mkl: should be
(11:59:40 AM) mkl: thx toffehoff
(11:59:43 AM) mkl: btw ... rweait: Shall we minute miblon's withdrawal from SWG and our thanks to him?
(11:59:45 AM) toffehoff: What about miblon?
(11:59:56 AM) mkl: thanks to miblon :) +1
(12:00:05 PM) toffehoff: +1
(12:00:06 PM) samlarsen1: miblon +1 :)
(12:00:17 PM) stevenfeldman: +1
(12:00:39 PM) rweait: So noted. ;-)
(12:00:41 PM) samlarsen1: routing ...
(12:01:18 PM) mkl: hour is up
(12:01:22 PM) mkl: we should close the meeting
(12:01:26 PM) mkl: can chat informally about it
(12:01:44 PM) rweait: routing deferred, then?
(12:01:53 PM) samlarsen1: i'm fine without extra routing chat :)
(12:02:23 PM) rweait: are we aware of any apologies for today?
(12:03:06 PM) rweait: next meeting, same/same? 
(12:03:20 PM) toffehoff: 'till next week!
(12:03:29 PM) stevenfeldman: see you all next week then byeee
(12:03:55 PM) samlarsen1 left the room (quit: Quit: ajax IRC Client).
(12:04:08 PM) wonderchook: rweait: I apologize for my tardiness
(12:04:09 PM) wonderchook: ;)
(12:04:28 PM) rweait: ** end log **