Working Group Minutes/SWG 2011-05-23
From previous meeting:
- Chris to Add Special Resolutions into proposal on wiki page. >> DONE
- Need to add text explaining what AoA is for to to wiki page. Henk, will draft this. >> DONE
- Chris to work on improving format and structure of wiki page. >> DONE
- Eugene and Henk to review wiki. >> DONE
- Power of chairman. Rather than having a vote and then a casting vote, the chair should have no vote and then only vote in case of a draw.
- Meetings can be adjourned when more people agree than disagree with adjourning. The Chairman can, at his own discretion, adjourn for a small period of time (half hour or so).
- There is a quorum when 25% of votes are present and 10% of members are present (either in flesh or virtually).
- No specific actions.
- Next meeting: 17:00 UTC Monday 30th May 2011
[19:35]toffehoff:... so what to do today? [19:35]chrisfl_:Good question, next topic on the list? [19:36]toffehoff:I think we all can agree on : http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/SWG_2011-05-09 [19:36]chrisfl_:yes [19:36]toffehoff:chrisfl_ should have thought so from you [19:36]chrisfl_: [19:37]Eugene:yes [19:37]toffehoff:Ok, can mark these as accepted [19:37]chrisfl_:doing it now [19:37]toffehoff:Pending actions: [19:38]toffehoff:- Chris to Add Special Resolutions into proposal on wiki page. [19:38]chrisfl_:done [19:38]toffehoff:Thanks. [19:38]toffehoff:- Need to add text explaining what AoA is for to to wiki page. Henk, will draft this. [19:38]toffehoff:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strategic_working_group/Articles_of_Association_Review#What_are_Articles [19:39]toffehoff:Clear enough? [19:39]chrisfl_:yes, [19:40]Eugene:yes [19:40]toffehoff:- Chris to work on improving format and structure of wiki page. [19:40]toffehoff:done [19:40]toffehoff:- Eugene and Henk to review wiki. [19:40]Eugene:and very well done [19:40]chrisfl_:might be worth moving What to the top. [19:41]toffehoff:chrisfl_ might be good, yes [19:41]toffehoff:Wow, a clean sheet! [19:41]chrisfl_:cool. I'll do that quickly [19:41]toffehoff:the actionlist I mean... [19:42]chrisfl_: [19:43]toffehoff:Shall we go to the still to be discussed items? [19:43]chrisfl_:sounds good. [19:43]toffehoff:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strategic_working_group/Articles_of_Association_Review#Themes_still_to_be_discussed [19:43]toffehoff:The power of the chair. [19:44]chrisfl_:I've just tried to make the text more clear on this... [19:44]chrisfl_:added the text: rather than having a vote and then a casting vote, the chair should have no vote and then only vote in case of a draw. [19:44]toffehoff:that was also what I was thinking of... [19:45]chrisfl_:great :_ [19:45]Eugene:yes, that sounds better [19:45]chrisfl_:the chair already has lots of control and they still get a vote where it matters [19:46]toffehoff:Right. [19:46]toffehoff:It's kinda like a casting vote, but we don't call it that way [19:47]Eugene: [19:47]chrisfl_:yes. [19:47]toffehoff:Difference is that the chair normally does not votes. [19:47]toffehoff:vote that is. [19:47]toffehoff:Since we all agree, let's move on. [19:47]toffehoff:Suspending meetings. [19:48]chrisfl_:moved to agreed [19:48]chrisfl_:these ones are more based on changes from what we have, but still worth considering for our new articles [19:49]toffehoff:Ok. [19:50]toffehoff:Basic point here is that meetings can be adjourned. [19:50]chrisfl_:yes, [19:50]toffehoff:And the question is: how can we adjourn [19:50]chrisfl_:exactly. [19:50]chrisfl_:my proposal is what's on the wiki [19:51]toffehoff:For my clarity ... [19:51]chrisfl_:shoot [19:51]toffehoff:What is adjourn exactly ....? [19:51]toffehoff:Like adjourning for an hour? [19:51]chrisfl_:exactly. [19:51]chrisfl_:it's like a pause [19:52]toffehoff:Continuing a couple of days later is also possible. [19:52]toffehoff:Not only a short moment .... [19:52]Eugene:I agree with Chris' position from wiki page [19:52]chrisfl_:yes - it could be for a long period of time. [19:52]toffehoff:Can we then make a difference? [19:53]chrisfl_:it's a stop with the intent of continuing later. [19:53]toffehoff:The difference meaning: short ones (say an hour) [19:53]toffehoff:and long ones (we wel reconvein later) [19:53]chrisfl_:I don't think that we need to worry about the time. [19:54]toffehoff:..... think I misspelled that one... [19:54]toffehoff:There is a difference in attendance.... [19:54]chrisfl_:if we say it needs to be a poll (Which perhaps could be a show of hands) [19:55]toffehoff:The situation I have in mind is the following: [19:55]chrisfl_:then people get the change in either case. But yes a number of days is important, [19:55]toffehoff:Let's say there is a very heated debate. [19:56]toffehoff:And the chair thinks that for an orderly process it may be good to cool of for half an hour.... [19:56] rweait1 betrad het kanaal. [19:56]toffehoff:He must need to have to power to do so.... [19:56]chrisfl_:yes - it may be worth allowing a short break without a vote. [19:56]chrisfl_:works for me [19:57]chrisfl_:say up to an hour or possibly 2? [19:57]toffehoff:Something like that. [19:57]toffehoff:Let's describe the situation and will Francis come up with a nice line of text [19:57]Eugene:Do you really think that such hot debate are possible? [19:58]chrisfl_:we might want to include a maximum mumber of adjornments otherwise the chair could perpetually adjourn [19:58]toffehoff:Yes, I've been in one .... (not OSM though) [19:58]chrisfl_:Eugene - we're planning for the worst. [19:58]Eugene:I mean people choose a special time in their schedule to attend a meeting, that takes some predefined time. [19:58]chrisfl_:situations that will probably never happen [19:59]Eugene:And if it will be adjourned for 1-2 hours a lot of members won't be able to attend the 2nd part because they just don't have enough time. [19:59]toffehoff:Looking at our current AGM's ..... a 1-2 hour break would not have made people leave..... [20:00]chrisfl_:true - I think in the kind of situation where this becomes important then people will hang around? [20:00]Eugene:but AGM is "Annual" meetings [20:00]chrisfl_:for example if an EGM has been called because the board is being naughty [20:01]chrisfl_:and they are being obstructive [20:01]toffehoff:Right... are you talking about something different Eugene? [20:01]chrisfl_:but it *might* apply to an AGM [20:02]Eugene:I was thinking that a meeting can me moved to some other day but not paused for some time the same day [20:02]Eugene:But if this can be apllied to AGM then yes, let it be so. [20:02]toffehoff:OK, moving a meeting to another day, I'm with you that that needs to have a majority of the people present. [20:02]chrisfl_:I think this would apply to all meetings (board meetings, AGMs and EGMs) [20:03]chrisfl_:toffehoff +1 [20:03]toffehoff:all official meetings.... [20:03]chrisfl_:perhaps we allow up to 30 minutes without consent [20:04]toffehoff:Fine with me for the moment. [20:04]Eugene:yes, 30 minutes should be enough [20:04]Eugene:even if the discussion is really heated several days won't cool it (see license change debates ) [20:04]toffehoff:OK, and now the "longer" adjournments [20:05]chrisfl_:require consent of more than 50% of the meeting? [20:05]toffehoff:No .... But if tensions build up, it may be good to let of steam for a couple of minutes. [20:06]chrisfl_:hence the 30 minutes [20:06]chrisfl_:allowance [20:06]toffehoff:50% of meeting, what is that? [20:06]toffehoff:people present? [20:06]toffehoff:Let's say 50 people showed up. [20:07]toffehoff:10 already left due to all kinds of reasons. [20:07]chrisfl_:of present [20:07]toffehoff:ok [20:08]toffehoff:So requirement of consent of 50% of people present at that time. [20:09]chrisfl_:possibly more votes to carry than against, [20:10]toffehoff:Might be good as well. [20:10]Eugene:yes [20:10]chrisfl_:so we exclude abstentions [20:10]chrisfl_:(sp?) [20:10]toffehoff:So of the yea and nay the yea should be the most. [20:10]chrisfl_:yes [20:11]toffehoff:Sounds better. [20:11]toffehoff:... and more practical. [20:11]chrisfl_:cool [20:11]chrisfl_:all agreed? [20:11]toffehoff:Agreed. [20:12]•toffehoff thinks of how this would work with teleconferencing.... [20:13]Eugene: [20:13]•toffehoff thinks that's only a technical issue ... [20:13]chrisfl_:yes especially the combination of people in a room with people elsewhere [20:13]toffehoff:But I think the nay sayers will also have an eye on that [20:14]chrisfl_:indeed. [20:14]toffehoff:Shall we talk about quorate quick? [20:14]chrisfl_:lets [20:15]toffehoff:Than the list of undiscussed is clear. [20:15]chrisfl_:yup just details left. [20:15]toffehoff:I think your solution works ok [20:16]toffehoff:General Meetings shall be deemed quorate if the lower of one tenth of the member or twenty-five (25) member are in attendance [20:16]toffehoff:Ho wait .... [20:16]toffehoff:Attendance is the key word here. [20:16]Eugene:Isn't 1/10 is too small number? [20:17]chrisfl_:hence the or 25 [20:17]toffehoff:Are we talking about people present only or also people how have given a proxy vote or already voted online? [20:17]chrisfl_:these numbers were pulled out the air. [20:17]chrisfl_:how many members does OSMF have? [20:17]chrisfl_:how many do we normally get? [20:18]toffehoff:Roughly 400 member [20:18]Eugene:wow [20:18]Eugene:I thought around 250 [20:18]toffehoff:Just went through the membership list this weekend [20:18]chrisfl_:have you checked who owes money [20:18]Eugene:Me probably [20:19]•chrisfl_ is pretty sure that he owes money [20:19]toffehoff:In that case you'll get an e-mail soon.... [20:19]chrisfl_:great. [20:19]Eugene:good [20:19]toffehoff:Mike Collinson is going through that list.... [20:20]chrisfl_:I was getting close to asking [20:20]toffehoff:..... besides: donations are always welcomed [20:20]chrisfl_:anyway.... [20:20]•chrisfl_ actually overpaid and the money was returned! [20:20]toffehoff:So where does quorate relate to? [20:21]Eugene:I think that we should be talking about all people including proxies [20:21]chrisfl_:so currently 1/10th would require 40 people for an AGM [20:21]toffehoff:There is a distinction between membership and donation .... [20:21]toffehoff:right. [20:21]toffehoff:(40 people) [20:23]toffehoff:If we would be doing videoconferencing that may be easy. [20:23]chrisfl_:the 2010 AGM doesn't have a list of arrendees https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_98c66t4khb&pli=1 [20:24]toffehoff:Note to self: check how has attendance sheet of AMG 2010 [20:24]toffehoff:how = who [20:24]chrisfl_: [20:25]chrisfl_:yes with streaming + irc 40 should be easy [20:25]toffehoff:Back to the issue: quorate refers to the number of votees [20:25]chrisfl_:I don't really know what a good number would be 1/10th possibly too small 5/10 probably too many [20:26]toffehoff:Either present or by proxy [20:26]chrisfl_:agree [20:27]toffehoff:We can discuss about the number later... [20:27]chrisfl_:good plan. [20:27]Eugene:what about 2,5/10? [20:28]toffehoff:The middle ground is actually 3/10 [20:28]chrisfl_:well 2.5/10 [20:28]chrisfl_:#pedant [20:28]toffehoff:Fine with me. [20:29]toffehoff:That refers to the number of votes that are present [20:29]chrisfl_:Are we saying 25% of the total membership should be "present" to vote? [20:30]chrisfl_:it's a big number [20:30]toffehoff:The votes should be present. Not having said that the person should be present. [20:30]toffehoff:Proxy, or e-mail, or .... [20:30]chrisfl_:that's why a "present" [20:31]chrisfl_:why I quoted even [20:31]Eugene:as for votes 25% is enough, probably, up to 40% is possible [20:31]Eugene:but for "present" 15-20% is ok [20:31]chrisfl_:I would be really interested to know how many were present at 2010 AGM [20:32]chrisfl_:remember it would be really bad to end up in a situation where a quorate is not possible. [20:33]toffehoff:2010 AGM: 88 + 94 + 154 + 81 votes where present. [20:34]chrisfl_:so 20% of a 400 membership [20:35]toffehoff:keep in mind we had less members at the AGM. [20:35]chrisfl_:true [20:37]Eugene:and what are these 4 numbers mean, BTW? [20:37]toffehoff:The number of votes for 3 positions. [20:37]toffehoff:meaning 139 members have voted. [20:37]Eugene:ok [20:38]toffehoff:Good question [20:38]chrisfl_:actaully I may have got my calculation wrong [20:38]chrisfl_:it's 34% of 400 membership [20:39]chrisfl_:(0.25 * 139) [20:39]chrisfl_:So 25% would easily have worked. [20:39]toffehoff:For board members: yes. [20:40]toffehoff:electing board members I mean. [20:40]toffehoff:We want the same for other resolutions? [20:40]toffehoff:..... must be .... [20:40]chrisfl_:e-mailed proxy votes probably wouldn't count as present [20:40]toffehoff:Since we're talking about quorate for a meeting to continue.... [20:41]toffehoff:If we were talking about physically present. [20:41]toffehoff:Then 25% would be to much. [20:42]toffehoff:Normally AGM's are not that well attended ... [20:42]Eugene:yes, for physical is presense 25% is too much [20:42]chrisfl_:including people "participating" in real time would help. [20:43]toffehoff:Would help, but then 25% is still a lot! [20:43]chrisfl_:having the AGM at sotm helps. [20:43]toffehoff:yup [20:43]chrisfl_:so are we back to 10% - because this needs to include EGM's [20:43]toffehoff:I would say 25% (or whatever number) of votes. [20:44]toffehoff:Good point! [20:44]Eugene:yes [20:45]toffehoff:Let's remember this is just a proposal we're making.... [20:45]toffehoff:There is room for discussion. [20:45]toffehoff:Especially about numbers.... [20:45]chrisfl_: [20:45]Eugene:absolutely! [20:45]chrisfl_:cool - so 25% for votes and 10% present [20:45]toffehoff:Would be nice to have a principle in our proposal. [20:45]toffehoff:Sounds good to me. [20:46]chrisfl_:excellent. [20:46]toffehoff:Present meaning "participating" either in flesh or online. [20:46]chrisfl_:yes [20:46]Eugene:sounds perfect [20:47]toffehoff:Looks like we've solved this (for the moment ) [20:47]chrisfl_: [20:47]Eugene: [20:48]toffehoff:Anything else before we can close this meeting? [20:48]chrisfl_:is that everything for today [20:48]chrisfl_:I don't have anything [20:48]toffehoff:OK, next week, same time? [20:48]chrisfl_:But won't be able to make next week as I'm heading on holiday after wherecamp next weekend [20:49]toffehoff:will see you in Berlin then! [20:49]chrisfl_:Can someone else do the minutes for today's meeting; and I'll sort out the wiki page? [20:49]toffehoff:Can do. [20:50]chrisfl_:thanks [20:50]toffehoff:Shall we skip a week? [20:50]chrisfl_:I'm happy for you to go without me [20:51]Eugene:Because we did a lot today? [20:51]chrisfl_:but we seem to be making good progress [20:51]toffehoff:Whatever reason you like ... [20:52]toffehoff:Well, let's just say I'll be online next week and we can go though things if needed [20:52]Eugene:Ok [20:52]toffehoff:for now: good night and good evening! [20:53]chrisfl_:night all [20:53]Eugene:Bye!